The Labour Party

I think the anti semitism programme is still on,

All Corbyn critics etc can now have a thread all to yourselves.
It doesn't work like that, though, does it

Is Panorama tonight still about the anti-Semitism in the LP or has it changed to the news from Washington?

Seems that Labour’s racism row escalated yesterday as three prominent peers resigned the whip over its handling of anti-Semitism, with at least one other indicating they could follow in the coming days.

If in opposition it’s remain, if in government it’s not yet decided

Graces Gran / WW/Grandad/bmacca

If there is a snap General Election, very possible, Labour wins .

Is Labour now a REMAIN Party or EXIT party ?

I was blind when I voted for Corbyn

GracesGranMK3, reading the last few pages of this thread has reminded me of an old adage which states, "there is none so blind as they that do not wish to see."

It's not that difficult and it has been explained many times. I understand it and I don't think I am any different to others so either you don't want to know or you have some unusual cognitive deficit. In either case I don't think anyone owes you repeated explanations. Any progress is still in the hands of the government. Any opposition can only make it's position clear and wait to see what the government's next move is. They can also bring a vote of no confidence if they think it appropriate. I do wonder what you think the should be doing.

Well, I have understood Labour’s position since it was agreed at Conference. Corbyn, Starmer et al have repeated it over the years since. The media have tried to use statements by the likes of the Independent Group (or whatever they are now) and a push from those MPs like Watson to say it isn’t clear, but it hasn’t changed really since Conference.

Corbyn has been trying to build a consensus across the Party (MPs, members), with unions and others because generally people agree that crashing out without any deal will be very harmful. Obviously not everyone agrees with this, for example ERG Tories and Farage’s Brexit party.

The statement from Corbyn today, following the meeting with unions and Shadow Cabinet meeting, restated Labour’s position. I think a previous poster has already posted excerpt from this? Sorry but I’m not sure how you interpret it as being unclear

bmacca

'However, it is repeated time and again that Labour won’t make their position clear - this is the tedious bit because the Party have continually stated their position'
-

How can you state a ' position' but not make that ' position clear?

It means nothing, nada, zilch.

So it fair to ask what is Labour's position.?

Urmstongran ' ‘pray tell’ jura2 it makes you sound so condescending!' ...

I'd say more sarcastic and in despair ;)

POGS you asked “Can anybody tell me, I have asked several times of posters who know Corbyn/Labour minds, what was in the deal or not in the deal proposed by Theresa May after meeting with Labour that still made Labour vote against the deal??????” which is what I answered.
You may not like or agree with Labour’s position which is obviously your choice to make, and I don’t have any problems with people who think differently.
However, it is repeated time and again that Labour won’t make their position clear - this is the tedious bit because the Party have continually stated their position

As far as I can see the LP's policy has moved, along pre-announced tracks, to meet the changes in the government policy. That seems reasonable to me and I feel prepared to wait and watch as I feel that, as the are not the party of government, they are playing the cards they have been dealt with caution, thought and forward planning following that parties processes. I can live with that for the moment.

bmacca

"Whitewavemark2 I can never decide if it’s wilful ignorance or forgetfulness"
--

Oh dear a chorus. Some of us do read we prefer to debate rather than belittle.

So bmacca I think your Labour 6 points were '. Reality Cheked' and on ' READING ' the Reality Check I found it interesting.

You did not quote a source but the 6 points in your posts is included in the follwing:-

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-45640548

Quote

' Take the Labour test No 2 :-

Take test number two: does a deal give the UK the "exact same benefits" as membership of the single market and the customs union?

Well there's only really one way to achieve the "exact same benefits" and that's staying in the single market and the customs union, which is not official Labour policy. Labour says it wants to stay in "a" customs union, and stay as close to the single market as possible.

That is not the same as membership, so you can argue that even current Labour policy would fail its own test.'
---

The 6 tests Labour set were so open to interpretation. nobody could bottom them, not even the likes of Barry Gardiner Labours Brexit Minister or even Keir Starmer when he was pinned down to supply a definitive question.

pogs “can’t resist can you” ? no.

Was that long post put out for comment or just notes to self?

Theresa May's extended offer to Labour.

But what are the ten points of the PM’s new 100-page WAB? And does the PM’s last-ditch attempt at a deal have any chance of getting through Parliament?

1. Alternative arrangements for the Irish backstop
What is it? A pledge to conclude fresh arrangements for the Northern Irish border by December 2020 – most likely using technology – to ensure the controversial backstop never needs to be used.

What will it mean? The plan commits the government to avoid implementing a hard border in Northern Ireland, even if there is no customs union.

Who will it convince? It is aimed to please Tory Brexiteers and the Democratic Unionist Party (DUP), but many have already accused the alternative arrangements of being too vague. Plus, there is no guarantee that the EU will approve them even if the UK does.

2. Keeping Great Britain aligned with Northern Ireland
What is it? A promise that Northern Ireland will stay aligned with the rest of the UK on regulations and custom, even if the backstop does come into force.

What will it mean? It confirms that the UK and Northern Ireland won’t be separated by a border in the Irish Sea.

Who will it convince? Again, it is aimed to please the DUP and Tory Brexiteers but it already seems to hold little weight with them.

3. MPs’ approval on “negotiating objectives and final treaties”
What is it? An assurance to MPs that they have the final say on the UK’s future relationship with the EU.

What will it mean? MPs will be given the power to set terms for the next phase of talks with the EU and will get a vote on whether or not to approve the final deal.

Who will it convince? It is intended to please a broad range of MPs by guaranteeing they will play a major role in the final negotiations. However, it was already expected to be included in the bill so is unlikely to win over any new supporters.

4. Workers’ Rights Bill
What is it? A guarantee that employment rights in the UK will not lag behind those in the EU.

What will it mean? Pensions, holiday pay and minimum redundancy terms will be no less favourable than those of workers in the EU after Brexit.

Who will it convince? It is aimed at Labour MPs in Leave seats but, given that it has already been promised several times, it is unlikely to turn many new heads.

5. Environmental standards protection
What is it? A pledge that the UK will see no change in the level of environmental protection after Brexit.

What will it mean? Environmental standards will not fall behind the EU’s, with a new independent watchdog, the Office of Environmental Protection, introduced to enforce it.

Who will it convince? It is geared at Labour MPs and green-minded Tories. However, the promised watchdog is the only aspect of the bill which presents something new.

6. Frictionless trade
What is it? A promise to seek “as close to frictionless trade in goods with the EU as possible while outside the single market and ending free movement”.

What will it mean? The end of EU citizens’ automatic right to work in the UK – Mrs May’s central pledge.

Who will it convince? It is aimed at reassuring Tory and Labour MPs for whom free movement is a big electoral issue, but ultimately represents a reiteration of the PMs longstanding commitments – so nothing new.

7. Just-in time supply chains
What is it? A guarantee to match EU rules for goods and agrifood products that might otherwise face border checks.

What will it mean? It will minimise checks at UK ports on goods being exported into the EU by UK companies thus avoiding excess delays for businesses. It will also protect thousands of jobs that depend on just-in-time supply chains.

Who will it convince? It is geared at Labour MPs in Leave seats who are worried about Brexit’s economic disruption, but some will question whether it can be delivered.

8. A ‘customs compromise’
What is it? MPs will be given a binding vote on post-Brexit customs arrangements

What will it mean? MPs will be given a binding vote on whether there should be a permanent customs union with the EU after Brexit, a temporary one, or Mrs May’s “custom arrangements”.

Who will it convince? Some Tory MPs dislike the prospect of even a temporary customs union, while Labour MPs want a permanent one, which is still unlikely to be approved.

9. Second referendum
What is it? A guarantee of a Commons vote on whether the final deal should be subject to a referendum.

What will it mean? The PM is giving in – she opposed s a second referendum but is committing to giving MPs a vote on one.

Who will it convince? It is aimed to please MPs who insist the UK should only leave the EU after a second public vote. However, many want a full guarantee of a new public vote, while opponents resent the concession.

10. Changes to political declaration
What is it? A “legal duty” to secure the necessary changes to the political declaration to reflect the new deal.

What will it mean? The political declaration will shape the future negotiations with the EU, but it does not carry the same weight as the withdrawal agreement, which the EU will not reopen.

Whitewavemark2 I can never decide if it’s wilful ignorance or forgetfulness

WW

'But I guess it helps those who don’t read much'

Can't resist can you.

bmacca thanks. You wouldn’t think it needed repeating really would you. But I guess it helps those who don’t read much

Labour has always been very clear about what it wanted from a Brexit deal. Some progress was being made in the cross party talks set up by May but they faltered because she couldn’t give an assurance that a new Tory leader would honour what was agreed.
Starmer’s six tests for the Brexit deal are:

1. Does it ensure a strong and collaborative future relationship with the EU?

2. Does it deliver the “exact same benefits” as we currently have as members of the Single Market and Customs Union?

3. Does it ensure the fair management of migration in the interests of the economy and communities?

4. Does it defend rights and protections and prevent a race to the bottom?

5. Does it protect national security and our capacity to tackle cross-border crime?

6. Does it deliver for all regions and nations of the UK?

Pass POGS. I await the replies of those who know

The Labour position has not changed as far as I see it.
Corbyn and the Unions have said nothing new and there is still no commitment to REMAIN.

1)We respect the Referendum result.

No you don't.

2) We want to Leave with a deal but our deal which is the same as Theresa May's deal will be different.

Totally bloody confusing. The sole aim of voting against the deal when Theresa May gave you the assurances you asked for was to prioritise the sole aim of the Labour Party to get a General Election. You are fooling ' the few not the many.'

3) We want a vote (2nd Referendum) on ANY deal done by a Conservative government, which we will never vote for. We will campaign to REMAIN.

True you will whip the Parliamentary vote again to stop ANY deal the Conservatives come up with.

4). If there has been a General Election and Labour win we shall negotiate a deal and put it back to the people ( 2nd Referendum).

Hmm but this time Labour will not commit to campaigning for REMAIN.
---

The EU has said it will not reopen the Withdrawal Agreement.

Whenever a Labour spokesperson talks of a new PM opening up a new dialogue with the EU they scoff at the idea. Yet Labour must have a some kind of backroom agreement with the EU as they say they can reopen negotiations. Mind you we have witnessed the backroom dealings first hand with the EU Council nomination for President of the Commission so I would not be surprised.

Whenever asked by I terviewers what is it Theresa May has not offered that Labour want they only come up with she will be gone and a new PM ' could/might' change the deal. Had the deal been done May would possibly still be PM and it would have been signed by law.

Can anybody tell me, I have asked several times of posters who know Corbyn/Labour minds, what was in the deal or not in the deal proposed by Theresa May after meeting with Labour that still made Labour vote against the deal??????

Don't bother telling me about others who voted against it, the ERG et al I am interested in what Labour wants other than a General Election.

Thank you.

Seems ‘we are for remain if ?, we are for leave if ‘ ?

I do because otherwise we get Johnson???? little mini-Trump

More smart-alecking from Corbyn. Labour latest weekly gaffe is another read-the-small-print promise.

It needs a lawyer to tease out exactly what he means, when, how, and for how long.

A vote for Labour could mean anything, anything at all, depending on the day of the week. Who cares anymore?