The Labour Party

Exactly jura, going back 74 years is pointless

I love history- but can we come back to the here and now.
We are facing a massive crisis - and we need a strong opposition leader to deal with it. Corbyn isn't the one.

name a successful labour government after Attlee until Blair .

Attlee on communism

Russian communism is the illegitimate child of Carl Marx
and Catherine the Great

Attlee was centre left

Anniebach Quote [Yes, 74 years ago. And who from 1979 to 1997?] End Quote.

Why from 1979 Anniebach. Surely the political history and achievements of Britain should be judged at the very minimum from the end of the Second World War.

The United Kindom in 1945 had come through more than six years of war that had dramatically effected every person who had survived that war. This country at that time was witnessing food rationing, power cuts, a transport deficiency and was effectively bankrupt.

Despite all that the first post-war Clement Attlee government brought forward the National Health Service and Welfare State which he considered essential in demonstrating the nations thanks for all the population had sacrificed throughout those years of war.

In the opinion of many, the Labour government of 1945 under the leadership of Clement Attlee remains as the greatest peacetime government this country has ever possessed.

Great achievement in the face of great adversity.

fair taxation WITHOUT avoidance

Yes, 74 years ago. And who from 1979 to 1997 ?

Agreed- and one more reason, and that is a big one- to oppose effectively and stop it being privatised into the hands of Trump and co. But it is a thirsty beast- and a million more so in the present times, with us living longer and with new and amazing, VERY expensive treatments available. It needs a very strong economy and services, and fair taxation with avoidanc - to sustain it.

Anniebach Quote [ Who has been the most successful labour leader?]

Clement Attlee who through his leadership of the 1945 post-war Labour government brought us all the National Health Service and Welfare State that the vast majority of the population of Britain still use and have the benefits of even until today.

Corbyn is not a leader, he is a nodding dog for momentum and UNITE.

Gran Quote [ The conservatives like to make out and fool people that they are the party good at managing the economy when clearly they are not.
They are worse than useless.]

Very well stated Gran. Boris (The Buffoon) Johnson certainly divulged his competence in managing the economy when in regard to Brexit he stared that Business could "f*ck off".

Great way to ensure a strong and successful Britain.

trisher

" I suppose then the question is jura2 do you vote for a party or a leader? As has been stated many times on different threads we do not have a presidential system in the UK and leaders come and go. So the policies of the party should matter more."
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If the policies of the Party matter more to voters, I am not arguing that point, then why having produced Manifestos the MP's of ANY political Party who stood on their Manifesto be allowed to simply leave the party and sit as an Independent because they never agreed with it. Those MP's ' broke the contract' with their constituents to stand on that parties terms.

Voters have said they ' returned' / joined Labour because of Corbyn. So they voted for the Leader and what he would bring back in their eyes to Labour. The Labour Party was dead to them before Corbyn and if the Leader ever went back to one holding a more centrist position no doubt they would revert back to not voting for ' the party' again.

At the end of the day people vote for many reasons, some vote for the party, some vote for the Leader.

Trisher- the more prosperous the economy, the mosre money we have to spend on services for all, and particularly the weakest in society. I too believe in socialist policies - but I am also a realist. Those who will be worst affected by Brexit- are the weakest, the most vulnerable (and mostly those who were hoodwinked into voting for it). Those who will or already have lost their jobs, in the most vulnerable parts of the UK. And when factories close, people become dependent on benefits instead of contributing. What we must ensure, is that prosperous businesses do pay fair taxes and do not stash it all out of the country. And we all now know, surely- that this is what Brexit was all about from the start, for ERG and Johnson- to stop the new EU Directive on Tax Havens and Tax Evasion- and to cut 'red tape' eg workers' rights, environmental and safety measures, allow poor husbandry and bio safety, etc, etc.
Cutting 'red tape' sounds good- until you begin to think and realise 'red tape' rules and Laws, are there to protect us all from those who don't care and are prepared to use and abuse workers, animals, the earth...

trisher centre left has socialist policies. No use pretending socialist policies are only from the far left.

Who has been the most successful labour leader ?

Why do you refer to a Far Left government Annie? I have said I believe in socialist policies. Labour under all leaders had until the Iraq war socialist policies.
In fact the Conservatives have never had an overall majority although they have introduced austerity and right wing policies. They were assisted in this by the Liberals, the DUP and some Labour MPs.
jura2 the argument we can't afford it has been used continuously to restrict measures which help the poorest. The answer is of course, it can always be afforded. It is the will to do it that fluctuates.

And like many, I feel totally politically homeless.

I thought it started in America after the repeal of the Glass-Steagall Act.

But - another thread perhaps.

'Many of us know the Tories are responsible for this debacle, the banking crisis
I don't think the Tories were responsible for the banking crisis.'

oh YES, they were, for sure, can't believe some people still can't see that. But for another thread, perhaps.

Trisher - I can see what you are saying. But the crisis is very serious at the moment- leaders do come and go - but once we are out of the EU- it will be too late. Surely? How is Labour going to be able to implement all the social and pro NHS policies, and address environmental issues- once the country has gone down the pan and Sterling tanked ever further?

At least Blair and Brown understood that you need a prosperous country, prosperous businesses and services, to provide decent employment and the tax revenue necessary to implement a decent social, etc, policy. They were betrayed by Tories who refused to pay fair taxes and took the money out of the country. That was NOT Brown's fault - he actually, and perhaps naïvely, believed businesses would be very successsful AND pay fair taxes. They did not...

trisher when was the last successful far left labour government?

Many of us know the Tories are responsible for this debacle, the banking crisis
I don't think the Tories were responsible for the banking crisis.

and then come like a Knight in shining armour and come and 'save us' I have a vision of him coming pedalling along on his trusty bicycle, bicycle clips shining in the sunshine, red flag hoisted to save us all.

jura I don't think he is capable of saving his party, the country, or even himself in fact.

I suppose then the question is jura2 do you vote for a party or a leader? As has been stated many times on different threads we do not have a presidential system in the UK and leaders come and go. So the policies of the party should matter more. I know some liked Blair but I never did. What stopped me voting Labour was the war policy and the right wing measures brought in which meant the Liberals were further left than Labour. I believe in left wing policies, who is responsible for enacting them I really don't care.

However, Corbyn has through his leadership completely reformed the organising structure throughout not just the Labour Party, but also throughout the whole broader Labour movement in the country to create one Labour identity.

Really?
That astonishes me. I presume his leadership is a euphemism for his ability to be controlled by others. As for one Labour identity - presumably achieved by de-selection or threats to those who may dissent in the slightest.

I wonder how many good Labour MPs have refrained from voicing their fears for the sake of their constituents whom they represent and for hopes for the future of the party, and indeed the country, post-Corbyn and, hopefully, post-Momentum?

trisher

Oh POGS come on! It has been a perpetual theme in lots of threads- Labour can't manage money only the Conservatives can save us.. surely you aren't trying to say it has never been said are you?
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So your post has no relevance to this thread!

I am sure it has been said on other treads but it had no relevance in debating with posters on here you tried to deflect from the running of this thread by using tactics to try and prove a point that wasn't even being asked or questioned.

You are not engaging in the thread by merely showing your dislike of the Tory Party or those whom you cannot accept hold a different opinion.

You are wasting the opportunity to hit back by posting facts/constructive criticism /debating the issues by simply arguing the toss with nothing substantial, nothing to add of consequence.

I am anti Tory and anti Corbyn .

Nicola Sturgeon in the Guardian today:

'I think the abdication of leadership on the part of Jeremy Corbyn right now will be the stuff of history books '

agreed.

trisher and grandad- many of us are not pro Tories, or anti Corbyn. Many of us know the Tories are responsible for this debacle, the banking crisis and austerity, and so much more.

Many of us are NOT anti-Corbyn - but despair at his sitting on fences and lack of effective opposition. Yes, Labour do not have the numbers- but could be clear about Brexit and seek alliances to defeat it, before it is too late. We despair of his policy which is to stick to Conference even in such a crisis - and for the country to crash out with No Deal - and then come like a Knight in shining armour and come and 'save us' -
many of us believe it will be too late and the cost of the country massive. And many of us believe that even then - he will not win a GE and a change of Leadership is required right now.