Labour anti-semitism

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From The Times

trisher Sat 08-Jun-19 12:55:00

" So you would allow the community to remain but feel free to criticise them from outside? How does that work with criticism of Israel. I don't live there. Should I be free to criticise them?."
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There has been a stock response to your repeated question and the answer that has been given copious amount of times is YES by many posters.

It is perfectly in order to criticise Israel but it is Antisemitic to attack the Jewish race or individual Jewish people because of their race.

How many more times.!

I criticise Israel for expanding it's territory I do not think I am being Antisemitic but if I was vile enough to say to a female Jewish MP -

Hang yourself you vile treacherous Zionist Tory filth. You are a cancer of humanity.”

“Ruth Smeeth is a Zionist—she has no shame—and trades on the murder of Jews by Hitler—whom the Zionists betrayed.”

“Ruth Smeeth must surely be travelling 1st class to Tel Aviv with all that slush. After all, she’s complicit in trying to bring Corbyn down.”

“First job for Jeremy Corbyn tomorrow—expel the Zionist BICOM smear hag bitch Ruth Smeeth from the Party.”

“This Ruth Smeeth bitch is Britainophobic, we need to cleanse our nation of these types.”

“#JC4PM Deselect Ruth Smeeth ASAP. Poke the pig—get all Zionist child killer scum out of Labour.”

“You are a spy! You are evil, satanic! Leave! #Labour #Corbyn.”

“Ruth you are a Zionist plant, I’m ashamed you are in Labour. Better suited to the murderous Knesset! #I Support Ken.”

“Your fellow traitor Tony Blair abolished hanging for treason. Your kind need to leave before we bring it back #Smeeth Is Filth.”

Then I think only blatant conspiracy theorists or deniers would not think I was being Antisemitic.

Sadly the deniers and conspiracy theorists abound as we have seen over the past few years when Corbyn became Labour Leader , even on gransnet. That is a defining moment when Labour MP's and councillors started to receive vile treatment and woe betide any MP who did not back Corbyn.

Have just seen this on Twitter

So 2 Jews One who works with Corbyn both denied anti semetism.

Willsman work with Corbyn.

Corbyn has said anti semetism will be wiped out of the Labour Party

Bridgeit Sat 08-Jun-19 11:29:24

"That is why at times outside ‘bodies’ need to establish if there was an intention to cause offence ."
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GracesGranMK3 Sat 08-Jun-19 11:35:59

"Which outside bodies and what sort of "offence" are we talking about here Bridgit? I would be very worried about any other body, other than parliament and the judiciary being able to impose their beliefs on others. That doesn't feel at all safe for society."
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May I be bold Bridgeit as I see GG MK3 has followed up your point and I note how the past few posts have followed a usual pattern.

GGMK 3

Perhaps an ' outside body ' could easily be thought of as The Equality and Human Rights Commission launching a formal investigation into Antisemitism in the Labour Party.

If you are still not ' understanding ' and want to see more examples happy to oblige.

GrannyGravy13 a lot of people believe the world was really created in 7 days and fossils were planted by god to make us think and test our faith. It doesn't make it true. Did you listen to the two posts earlier GracesGranMk3 posted.2 Jewish people, one of whom has worked with JC both deny anti-semitism and she states unequivocally that JC is not anti-semitic. There may be anti-semitism in the LP but no more than is found in other organisations. It is so sad that this debate which is fuelled by the actions of Israel towards Palestinians should become an obsession whilst in other countries extreme right wing parties gain ground and flourish without sanction. And people in this country with connections to those parties wait to act.

It is so easy when someone in the Labour Party makes a verbal attack on Jews to launch into an epistle on Israel.

Willsman ,last year after some Rabbis complained about anti semetism in the party , said some Jews were Trump fanatics, he was referred for training !, now he has decided
the Israeli embassy are behind the lies of anti semetism and some one in the party was working for the Embassy and the
68 Rabbis who lodge a complaint this year were working for the Embassy .

Grandad1943 Fri 07-Jun-19 20:52:39

" As I have stated previously in this thread racism, harassment and bullying surround all of us in every corner of our society. Therefore, for those who wish to see the above iradicated perhaps they would care to comment on the below report taken from the Daily Express in regard to the above problems in the Conservative Party."
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You also ironically said when the discussion is about the Labour Party and antisemitism this on this thread :-

Grandad1943 Wed 05-Jun-19 20:51:12i

To continually post on the above Issues in regard to only one political organisation and often one person in that organisation is to deny any reality in the situation.

In fact, it becomes rediculas attempted cheap political point scoring, which demeans what is a growing and very serious problem in Britain at this time."
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You keep giving the impression your posts concerning the Tory Party and accusations of Islamophobia are somehow never answered. WRONG. I have answered you on several threads , as have others.

POGS Thu 06-Jun-19 00:50:07
Grandad

" To continually post on the above Issues in regard to only one political organisation and often one person in that organisation is to deny any reality in the situation.

In fact, it becomes rediculas attempted cheap political point scoring, which demeans what is a growing and very serious problem in Britain at this time."
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Where your point falls flat on it's face is there was a thread called ' Islamophobia in the Conservative Party ' to name just one.

You are a prevalent poster against the Conservative Party and Conservative individual MP's on the ' 'copious ' anti Tory threads. Along with other posters who like yourself feel the Labour Party should be somehow be out of bounds for debate, ( a case of ' Do as I say not do as I do ) when the thread subject is the Labour Party I have to ask why you cannot accept ALL political parties are debatable on GN whether we as individuals like it or not.

Given antisemitism in the Labour Party has been discussed on GN for 3 years and it is as current an issue to date I think it warrants to be kept in focus . Islamophobia in the Tory Party equally if and when evidence is provided should be debated too. As for ' political point scoring ' that can take various forms .."
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Whether it be Antisemitism in the Labour Party or Islamophobia in the Tory Party it matters not a jot , it is simply WRONG.!

The difference is I see no poster defending the accusations of Islamophobia in the Tory Party if and when factual evidence is provided but over the years on GN the denial of Antisemitism in Labour by some posters has been astounding.

Oops “posts” I feel that the Labour leader JC is anti-Semitic, and under his leadership it has been allowed to grow unchecked in the LP.

In my opinion (for what it’s worth) after reading various newspaper articles and watching social media “pists

I didn’t infer you did GGMK3, I was trying to make the point re responsibility that each of us have to think before we speak or act.

Outside bodies= the ghostly bodies lurking @ GN headquarters ,waiting to adjudicate warring ( wearying or waring) GNetters who may get out of control trying to police and dominate a thread towards their own way of posting.

GGMK3 I raised my family the way I was raised.
My Grandparents taught my parents - if you cannot say anything nice then do not say anything at all. (13 Sat 08-Jun-19 12:54:12)

I said nothing about how you or anyone else, personally raised your family GrannyGravy.

We have wandered far from anti semetism in the Labour
Party , distraction yet again.

Doesn’t change a thing, there is anti semetism in the Labour
Party

Ignore the smiling emoticon. Not sure why it appeared.

"The main premise is, even in a democratic country of free speech, if we say something about that is offensive to a majority of the population, then maybe we should refrain from saying it publicly." (22 Sat 08-Jun-19 12:24

That is a dictatorship of the majority trueblue. We seem to have lost the whole sense of democracy where the minority also have the right to free speech. That is appalling! How do you think progress has been made in the past?

Beckett Thank you for asking the question so clearly in your post of Sat 08-Jun-19 12:15:26. We have been left guessing an apparently that is my/our fault.

We can only ask Bridgit once again, what outside bodies? Although I do not think Bridgeit has an answer to give us.

Then we have a post saying "Looking at the problems & obscurely objectively ..." what the does that mean?

Iam64 Sat 08-Jun-19 11:52:33
GracesganMk3 - you think I have 'muddled up all the ways people may choose to be offended together'.
I don't agree with you of course. I 'think' that you enjoy getting into pointless rows with posters who take a different view than you do.
I try to avoid making such critical comments about other people but I've had enough.

I didn't think it a pointless row. I thought we were talking about antisemitism and that is a very important discussion. I thought we were talking about whether it is reasonable to offend if people take offence just because we disagree with them. That isn't personal. I think it would be interesting to look back at where the personal remarks were coming from Iam.

Let me clarify. I do not have any reason to agree that Jeremy Corbyn or the Labour Party as a whole is anti-semitic so I do not agree with those who try to make out that case.

Some whose hold such an opinion often do so on the basis of tittle-tattle, rumour and sheer prejudice. So, do I think there has been a general rise in racism and religious prejudice? Yes. Do I think there is a rise in uneducated and thoughtless comment? Yes. Do I think some people use the wrong language when trying to explain what they mean? Yes. Do I think attacking Labour as if it was the spawn of the Devil helps; no.

I was happy to discuss the difficult subject of anti-semitism in general. This led to personal comments being made but that's okay until they are sent to me by PM.

Looking at the problems & obscurely objectively, the countries which uphold appalling human suffering & cruelty can & do argue that it is their right, it is their country , their people their rules , thank goodness that the free world works towards change. A so called ‘intelligent debate ‘ would fall on deaf ears. We can only work together to gradually implement change.
We on GN cannot agree , what hope for the rest of the world.

So you would allow the community to remain but feel free to criticise them from outside? How does that work with criticism of Israel. I don't live there. Should I be free to criticise them?.

GGMK3 I raised my family the way I was raised.

My Grandparents taught my parents - if you cannot say anything nice then do not say anything at all.

We repeated this to our children.

It is possible to hold strong opinions and voice them without being rude or nasty.

It is possible to disagree with people and their opinions without “mud slinging”.

Respect for others should be integral to the way we lead our lives.

trisher If it were I most likely would leave that country and say criticise from the outside.

trueblue22 so if the majority of the populaion are fascist you shouldn't say anything because they might be offended?

beckett I think we are making this debate too complicated and getting ourselves into knots.

The main premise is, even in a democratic country of free speech, if we say something about that is offensive to a majority of the population, then maybe we should refrain from saying it publicly.

If I say something about a community that offends the majority of that community, I will stop voicing it. I can have my own opinion, but I would prefer to be mindful of hurting my fellow citizens.

"Hence the need at timefor outside bodies to intervene & make judgements ref offence"

Are we talking about a "thought police" here? If someone says or does something illegal then it is right they should be held to account - but how can someone tell what someone else's intentions or thoughts are?