Labour anti-semitism

Or our opinion.

Interpretation and opinion are one and the same.

POGS Mon 01-Jul-19 20:17:23
Message withdrawn at poster's request
-
It was ' withdrawn' by GNHQ because I quoted another posters words that was in breach of the guidelines. If I say I own it and happy to own what I post! [annoyed]

As for the ' mural' raising it's ugly head again this is a classic exmple of how the problem of antisemitism is festering when some see antisemitism in various forms but others don't. If the ' context' behind the mural is understood then it is obvious it is anti_semetic but that is my opinion.

What is another problem is referring to ' Free speach', 'opposing censureship', as if they hold the Trump card over antisemitism/Islamophobia /racism tropes and visual display.

There is a fine line between ' Freedom of expression and free speach. ' and ' incitement to hate, racism, islamoohobia and antisemitism.'

I will fess up I thought the context of the Boris Johnson article and his saying he understood why some people saw the burka as wearing a ' letter box/ bank robber' jibe was not Islamophobic because the ' context' behind his article was defending the right of Muslim women to indeed wear the burka. Had his article been against the wearing of the burka then the ' context' of the comment would indeed be on the verge of being Islamophobia. Others disagree obviously.

The mural ' context' however is outright in it's meaning and it is portraying Jewish characters as dominating, money men playing monopoly with well known images of nation States on a table which is held up by what I believe to be black slaves.

This was a good article at the time:-

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/mar/28/antisemitism-open-your-eyes-jeremy-corbyn-labour

Interpretation can take various forms.

The artist was asked if he was portraying Jewish Bankers, he replied “No”
It was subliminal then, the thought below his conscious level of thought that greedy bankers look like Jews.

Really!
Pull the other one.

Old people have big noses. If you think portraying people with big noses is anti-semitic how is an artist to portray old people?
Speak for yourself trisher

This is getting ridiculous now.

Unsure if it’s pathetic, ridiculous or a windup, I think a windup, anti semetism is a joking matter it seems

I am just off to inspect my nose.

(it has to be a wind-up)

Pinocchio wasn't old but his nose grew when he told fibs.

Pinocchio wasn’t old ?

Snap Callistemon ?

The figures are Rothschild, Rockefeller, Morgan, Aleister Crowley, Carnegie & Warburg” Only two of these are Jewish. The artist has said consistently that his argument is class based and not anti-semitic. If we are going to restrict a class argument because some see anti-semitism in it we are going down a dangerous road. If you google the names for images they are older men with big noses.

Callistemon your nose may not be big. Mine certainly is. I am not Jewish if someone paints me with a big nose are they being anti-semitic?
I've already posted a link about age and noses and ears. If you don't believe it well that's your right, but you can't change it.

I know full well that noses and ears do carry on growing.
I think that there are very few people who do not know that.
Of course I believe scientific evidence.

However, that does not mean that:
Most old people have big noses.
Most old people have large ears.

trisher - I looked up the characters in that cartoon some time ago and saw that only 2 were Jews.
Much exaggeration as per.
BTW big noses is also a common feature in Arabs/Muslims. Jews and Arabs are cousin Semites.



btw Big noses is also a f

ps last line in error.
Rothschild and Warburg were Jews.

Finkelstein - 'I Don't Believe In Conspiracy Theories... But This Is A Conspiracy'
It is important to place the Williamson suspensions in context. This is described with rare honesty and courage by Norman Finkelstein, whose mother survived the Warsaw Ghetto, the Majdanek concentration camp and two slave labour camps. Finkelstein's father was a survivor of both the Warsaw Ghetto and the Auschwitz concentration camp. In an interview with RT in May, Finkelstein commented:

'Corbyn, he did not present a threat only to Israel and Israel's supporters, he posed a threat to the whole British elite. Across the board, from the Guardian to the Daily Mail, they all joined in the new anti-semitism campaign. Now that's unprecedented - the entire British elite, during this whole completely contrived, fabricated, absurd and obscene assault on this alleged Labour anti-semitism, of which there is exactly zero evidence, zero.'

Indeed, an October 2016 report by the Commons home affairs committee found:

'Despite significant press and public attention on the Labour Party, and a number of revelations regarding inappropriate social media content, there exists no reliable, empirical evidence to support the notion that there is a higher prevalence of antisemitic attitudes within the Labour Party than any other political party.'

A September 2017 report by the Institute for Jewish Policy Research found:

'Levels of antisemitism among those on the left-wing of the political spectrum, including the far-left, are indistinguishable from those found in the general population... The most antisemitic group on the political spectrum consists of those who identify as very right-wing: the presence of antisemitic attitudes in this group is 2 to 4 times higher compared to the general population.'

The report noted that 'the prevalence of antisemitism on the far right is considerably higher than on the left and in the political centre'.

Jonathan Cook described in February how a new Labour Party report had 'decisively undercut' the claims of Corbyn's critics: allegations of anti-semitism had been made 'against 0.08 percent of the 540,000-strong Labour membership. Hardly "endemic" or "institutional", it seems.'

Finkelstein continued:

'Yeah, there's some fringe members of Labour who, you know, play the anti-semitic [interrupted by interviewer]... I read the polls, I read the data – it hovers between six and eight per cent are hardened anti-semites in British society. It's nothing! Yeah, so there are a few crazies, but there's no "institutionalised" anti-semitism in the British Labour Party. There's no threat of anti-semitism in British society. I've read all the data, I've studied it closely. It just doesn't exist. It's all being designed and manipulated... I don't believe in conspiracy theories, as you know, but this is a conspiracy.'

Asked if there was a danger that false accusations might have a 'cry wolf' effect in undermining the credibility of genuine claims of anti-semitism, Finkelstein replied:

'Well, there's a bigger problem than that – there's the boy who cried wolf, but I think there's a bigger problem than that. If Corbyn loses, a lot of people in the Labour Party are going to blame it on those Jews who fabricated this whole anti-semitism witch-hunt hysteria. And that will be a problem, which... you know what the bigger problem there is? It's true! Jews were the spearhead of this campaign to stop Corbyn. And so, there's going to be a lot of anger within the Labour Party – that's not anti-semitism, that's factually based.'

When reminded by his interviewer that Jews were hardly alone in promoting these accusations, Finkelstein responded:

'Yes, but they play the most visible role and they play the most aggressive role. The British elites could not have gotten away with calling Corbyn an anti-semite unless they had the support, the visible support, of all the leading Jewish organisations. You have to remember that during the summer [of 2018. See here], all three major British publications, for the first time in British Jewish history, they all took out a common editorial denouncing Corbyn as an anti-semite and saying that we're now standing on the verge of another Holocaust. They are the enablers of this concerted conspiracy by the whole of British elite society to destroy Jeremy Corbyn.'

The point was made on July 2 when a small UK newspaper, Jewish News, chose to highlight a comment made in an interview with Foreign Secretary Jeremy Hunt published the previous day:

'When I went to Auschwitz I rather complacently said to myself, "thank goodness we don't have to worry about that kind of thing happening in the UK" and now I find myself faced with the leader of the Labour Party who has opened the door to antisemitism in a way that is truly frightening.'

Hunt's words represent a level of moral depravity that almost defies belief. To use the Holocaust for political gain in faking the claim that Corbyn could open the door to a second Holocaust, is to do nothing less than exploit the deaths of the 6 million Jews who died under Nazi tyranny. It is truly astonishing that a Jewish newspaper would be willing to publish such a comment. Writer Michael Rosen, a Professor at Goldsmiths, University of London, commented:

'A possible future prime minister has said something about Auschwitz which the political editor of the Jewish Chronicle has said on twitter is "offensive". None of this is - apparently - news. What is it then?'

Hunt's comment generated massive, widespread outrage on social media. And yet, our July 4 ProQuest newspaper database search found a single mention in the entire UK press (in the Daily Mail) – the comment has simply been buried, presumably to avoid damaging the anti-semitism smear campaign targeting Corbyn.

In 2018, Noam Chomsky commented on this campaign:

'The charges of anti-Semitism against Corbyn are without merit, an underhanded contribution to the disgraceful efforts to fend off the threat that a political party might emerge that is led by an admirable and decent human being, a party that is actually committed to the interests and just demands of its popular constituency and the great majority of the population generally, while also authentically concerned with the rights of suffering and oppressed people throughout the world. Plainly an intolerable threat to order.' (Chomsky, email to Media Lens, 9 September 2018)

The facts all fit with Finkelstein and Chomsky's identification of a politically motivated smear campaign. Our July 4 ProQuest search of UK newspaper articles before and after Corbyn stood for the Labour leadership in May 2015 found these mentions:

'Jeremy Corbyn' and 'anti-semitism' before 1 May 2015 = 18 hits

'Jeremy Corbyn' and 'anti-semitism' after 1 May 2015 = 13,080 hits

None of the 18 articles accused Corbyn of anti-semitism. In his first 32 years as an MP, it was just not a theme. And not, as we have discussed, because Corbyn was not known or smeared – he was subjected to vile personal abuse by the press, just not in relation to any supposed anti-semitism.

Very sensible article, Grany - thanks.

Add me to that remark

I agree Thanks Grany

But Trisher, don’t we all know ‘very nice people’ who belong to political parties, or support political parties, with which we don’t agree? As we all know, if you don’t agree with someone’s political views, you tend to avoid the subject of politics when in their company, or we speak very respectfully avoiding any confrontation, as does the the other party. Hence the advice, never discuss religion or politics in polite society.

The OP was about an investigation being launched into anti Semitic behaviour in the Labour Party. There seems no doubt that this is a real problem, as shown by Margaret Hodge’s post on Twitter. In my opinion anti Semitic behaviour is disgusting. There’s nothing else to say about it, it’s simply disgusting. So I’m pleased it’s being investigated.

I just wish they’d do the same over anti-Semitism and Islamophobia in the Tory party. If the reports are to be believed and I have seen some, it is a far worse problem.

maddyone -so it's investigated- so you can if you wish remove people from the Labour Party. You can if there is real evidence of hate crime prosecute them. Will this stop anti-Semitism? I don't think it will and I think Finkelstein is right there will be a Labour party split and some will see conspiracies some won't. What none of these accusations does is make it better for British democracy in fact they make things worse, because if what results from this is that accusations of anti-semitism can be thrown at people and those who question it are vilified, the only long term effect will be on free speech.

WWM2 no, it isn’t a bigger problem or we would be inundated with reports of it as we are with antisemitism within the LP.
You simply wish it to be ‘worse’ because you can’t get your head around the idea of it being so bad as it is ( Labour antisemitism.)That’s the problem with thinking that any one political party is wonderful, you can’t see the wood for the trees.

You could very well be right trisher. The loss of free speech would be a massive loss, I hope it doesn’t come to this. But the Margaret Hodge twitter post was utterly disgusting, I know we all agree on this. These things should be investigated, I’m sure they’re against the law.
I still agree with the investigation.