Labour anti-semitism

Defending George Galloway and calling a poster who disagrees with him ignorant

Best to agree to disagree as this point. We both have different views on what constitutes anti Semitism.

I think we have to belong to an indigenous group to recognise what is offensive to us. If I say something that is say offensive to a Frenchman and I don't think it is, then who is right here?

There is a definition of anti-semitism which has been agreed trueblue22 this indicates that the criticism of Israel is not anti-semitic. But if you want to discuss what actually happened, if there was a football match between Scotland and England and Scotland won would a Scotsman posting "No flag of St George on the cup" be being racist? Or would he simply be pointing out who won?

Best to agree to disagree as this point. We both have different views on what constitutes anti Semitism.

I rather think you have no answer to my previous reply trueblue and I do not "agree to differ" on this as it is being used as a stick to beat people with.

I think we have to belong to an indigenous group to recognise what is offensive to us. If I say something that is say offensive to a Frenchman and I don't think it is, then who is right here?

Either might be right. I could just depend on how big the chip on the Frenchman's shoulder is or how rude you are. Expecting the only arbiter of offence to be the one who claims they are offended is madness. Your Frenchman has every right to feel and say he is offended but that does not mean offence was given. That would be like saying we must accept that when everyone complains they feel bullied we can only judge the other person involved as a bully. Madness.

Now perhaps someone could take my knowledge a little deeper.

We shouldn't show hatred to anyone based on their race or religion. I can very easily agree with that and, of course, it includes all races and religions.

I believe we have the right to criticise a state and how it treats its own and other people.

So that covers Jews and the State of Israel. But what about Zionism? Zionism is (so it says on google) a nationalistic movement and I am afraid I am not keen on nationalistic movements. They don't have a good history. It does seem to me that many who are attacking what they call antisemitism are actually attacking anti-zionism.

I am very happy for you to show me where I am wrong on this but there appears to be a movement from some Zionists to get the same protection from antisemitic laws for Zionism. Could someone please explain?

Your point about Zionists wanting to be protected under the definition - I doubt it Grace's Gran. The Zionists I've met, and the Sabras, are toughminded people, they've had to be to survive.
Trueblue you sound like most of the Jews I know, more vulnerable and sensitive because of her family history. Hating violence of any kind.
It takes all sorts.
BTW there might be a change in Israeli leadership soon - the Knesset has been dissolved because Netanyahu couldn't form a coalition. There will be another election, so who knows what type of leadership will come next.

Grandad

" That support has been with Jess Phillips since the time she resigned from the Labour Party during the years of the Blair premiership gaining her a reputation as a person of great personal principle."

Why didn' t the likes of Corbyn leave the Labour Party under Blair if it is a ' great personal principle'?

I often think that after the fall of the Trotskyist Militant Group and the likes of Derek Hatton et al , which has infiltrated the Labour Party under the Jeremy for Leader, Corbyn/Momentum Labour Party, if they had formed a Communist/Marxist/Trotsky call it what you will political party at the time of New Labour they could have fought on a platform of honesty about where they want the UK to go.

Why didn't they have the belief in their own opinion the UK wanted their politics, even those in Change UK have had the guts to so.

As for Jacob Rees Mogg I remember the snide comments when Jess Phillips and Jacob Rees Mogg showed a respect for each other as opposing politicians. Sad really.

Because POGS Corbyn lacks principles .

He will make his speech to the anti Trump protestors today
yet attended a state banquet for the Chinese President.

True blue22 it doesn’t surprise me that your honest, personally informed posts are simply rejected by posters who clearly believe the state of Israel has no right to exist.

The prayer of Jewdas Seder whom Corbyn spent Passover with

‘’Pray against The State of Israel’

This is the current law trisher:

"Something is a racist or religious hate incident if the victim or anyone else thinks it was carried out because of hostility or prejudice based on race or religion.

This means that if you believe something is a hate incident, it should be recorded as such by the person you are reporting it to."

I find your views and the Labour leaderships' views anti Semitic and abhorrent. I'm Jewish and anti Zionism IS the new anti Semitic trope...even according to Lord Rabbi Sacks!

...and Hhow would you define a 'Zionist/or Zio' as some like to call 'then?

fennel When you start being treated as 'other' in your own country of birth, it would make anyone sensitive. Jews are no exception.

Thank goodness I live in multi cultural London where a small minority of hard Left & Right wing racists unfortunately reside.

So trueblue22 who do you think is the victim in Galloway's tweet? Is it the football team? Is it the Jewish supporters (many of whom I suspect had nothing to do with the display of the Israeli flag)? or is it the people who displayed the flag? It can onlybe the latter in which case you can claim the post was anti-Israeli and possibly (but debatably) racist. What you cannot claim because all Jews did not support displaying the flag and all Jews do not support Israel is that it is anti-semitic. On the other hand you could ask why an Israeli flag was displayed at a football match anyway and why it is acceptable for the Israeli flag to be on display at any match but not the Palestinian flag?

trueblue22 from the IHRA definition of anti-semitism
However, criticism of Israel similar to that leveled against any other country cannot be regarded as antisemitic Many flags displayed at football matches have been criticised

I think flying a flag is theeast of a problem.

A timely reminder of PART of what female Labour MP Ruth Smeeth said in Parliament during a debate on Anti-semitism :-

" Over the past two years, however, I have experienced something genuinely painful: attacks on my identity from within my own Labour family. I have been the target of a campaign of abuse, attempted bullying and intimidation from people who would dare to tell me that people like me have no place in the party of which I have been a member for over 20 years, and which I am proud to represent on these Benches. My mum was a senior trade union official; my grandad was a blacklisted steelworker who became a miner. I was born into our movement as surely as I was born into my faith. It is a movement that I have worked for, campaigned for and fought for during my entire adult life, so it was truly heart-breaking to find myself in Parliament Square just over three weeks ago, standing shoulder to shoulder with the Jewish community against the poison of anti-Semitism that is engulfing parts of my own party and wider political discourse.

If the House will indulge me, I would like to read out a small sample of what I have received on social media, but before doing so, I have to thank the dedicated team at the CST who have protected me, shielded me from as much of this abuse as possible, and worked with the police on the occasions when abuse became threats. As others have said, they should not be necessary, but personally I would be lost without them. They have also worked their way through the thousands of pieces of anti-Semitic abuse I have received to provide the following greatest hits, although I must warn the House that my fan-base has shown scant regard for appropriate parliamentary language, so I apologise in advance:

“Hang yourself you vile treacherous Zionist Tory filth. You are a cancer of humanity.”

“Ruth Smeeth is a Zionist—she has no shame—and trades on the murder of Jews by Hitler—whom the Zionists betrayed.”

“Ruth Smeeth must surely be travelling 1st class to Tel Aviv with all that slush. After all, she’s complicit in trying to bring Corbyn down.”

“First job for Jeremy Corbyn tomorrow—expel the Zionist BICOM smear hag bitch Ruth Smeeth from the Party.”

“This Ruth Smeeth bitch is Britainophobic, we need to cleanse our nation of these types.”

“#JC4PM Deselect Ruth Smeeth ASAP. Poke the pig—get all Zionist child killer scum out of Labour.”

“You are a spy! You are evil, satanic! Leave! #Labour #Corbyn.”

“Ruth you are a Zionist plant, I’m ashamed you are in Labour. Better suited to the murderous Knesset! #I Support Ken.”

“Your fellow traitor Tony Blair abolished hanging for treason. Your kind need to leave before we bring it back #Smeeth Is Filth.”
----

Yet still there is a denial and the conspiracy theorists abound.

If it is ALL a conspiracy to attack Labour and Corbyn and those who have surrounded him for years then half the Labour Party MP's are conspirators.

When Labour MP's, councillors, activists are thought of as liars, conspirators by their own then I don't see how the problem will be ever resolved.

POGS utterly appalling!!!

True blue22 it doesn’t surprise me that your honest, personally informed posts are simply rejected by posters who clearly believe the state of Israel has no right to exist. (Tue 04-Jun-19 13:22:17 )

Iam64 I must have missed something. Rather than randomly accusing people, which posters have said anything to show they "clearly believe the state of Israel has no right to exist."?

I listened to the debate, thank you for posting Ruth’s words
POGS

It was Ruth who was verbally attacked by a momentum activist when Baroness Sharmi gave her findings on anti
semetism in the Labour Party, Ruth left the hall in tears,
Corbyn sat , watched, listened but remained silent, when the meeting closed Corbyn was caught on camera greeting the man who had attacked Ruth. Some time later after many complaints the man was suspended from the party.

What matters is Corbyn witnessed one of his MP’s being abused and warmly greeted the abuser.

Corbynites will continue to deny there is anti semetism in the party and explain ‘it’s pro Palastine or anti Israel ‘

How can those comments to Ruth be anything than vile anti
semetism

Your point about Zionists wanting to be protected under the definition - I doubt it Grace's Gran. The Zionists I've met, and the Sabras, are tough-minded people, they've had to be to survive. (Tue 04-Jun-19 10:14:57)

I was surprised by how sure you are about this Fennel so I googled it as I had heard it was an issue. There are five pages of articles covering such topics as:

"Debunking the myth that anti-Zionism is antisemitic"
"Opinion: Anti-Zionism Isn’t the Same as Anti-Semitism"
"Against Appeasement: What's Wrong with Zionism?"

and on and on. It does seem to me that there may be some mixed messages being given out.

...and Hhow would you define a 'Zionist/or Zio' as some like to call 'then? (Tue 04-Jun-19 14:14:34)

I have never heard the word "Zio" trueblue22 but a good dictionary definition of Zionist seems to be

"Zionism is the nationalist movement to create a sovereign (self-ruling) homeland for the Jewish people in the Land of Israel. This movement resulted in the creation of the State of Israel in 1948."

I did say 'I doubt it', so not so sure.
What I meant to convey is that there are many Israelis who are so proud of their country, love it so much, that they don't really care if others criticise their actions. They're used to it, and almost expect it. Because of past experience.
So why would they want to extend the definition of antisemitism?

Thanks for getting back Fennel. I have lived in a country created by outsiders and, of course, we have one on our doorstep. They seem bound by their birth to have some with extremist views about how they move forward. I still think that the 'State' of Israel has to be held to account by international rules and that the issue with antisemitism is and should be entirely separate.

My quick - and admittedly not deep enough - reading about Zionism seems to point to them being a bit like other nationalist parties. You have those supporting the status quo, those wanting a bit of change and those with very extreme views.

Of course, Israel has a right to exist, because of what happened in 1948. My worry is that any demands from extreme nationalists for Zionism to be considered under antisemitic laws and rules could actually be damaged both Israel and the diaspora.

I could easily have got this wrong so further knowledgable input - which I don't have - very welcome.

I've heard the term Zio frequently, used by people who claim they're 'only criticising the actions of this Israeli government'. It's used as a term of abuse. If a similar term was used against any other BEM group I doubt the posters here who dispute posts suggesting there is a problem with anti semitism, would be rightly angry.

any Mention of anti semetism in the Labour Party and we hear ‘zionism’ or pro Palastine.