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Meanwhile in Scotland.....

(231 Posts)
Granny23 Tue 28-May-19 14:18:07

With the EU election results for Scotland very different from the results in England, I thought it was time to resurrect this thread.

I understand that 72% of voters chose Remain supporting parties. The SNP had approx 40% of the Scottish votes but under the current UK system that equates to only 4% of all votes cast across the UK.

How long can this disparity endure, when the wishes of people living in Scotland are always defeated by the 10x large electorate in England?

GabriellaG54 Tue 28-May-19 14:48:28

As I've said on another thread, I agree that, if you want to leave, then you should have the right to negotiate. The fact remains that the majority in Scotland chose to stay within the UK but the landscape has changed.

If Scotland chooses to negotiate leaving you will have to convince all those who chose to stay but I believe in you having the option of trying.

Tweet NS and your local MP.
We on GN cannot help you do this (unless the Scottish contingent can give more insightful comments)
I wish you luck.

Mycatisahacker Tue 28-May-19 21:26:08

I agree if the wishes or the majority to leave the UK have changed then you have every right to leave.

Not sure if they have though or it’s just a Brexit protest? That’s for Scotland to decide.

I think you would have adopt the euro and I think I that would be bad for your economy but it’s Scotland's choice

Take Nicola but leave Ruth. grin

paddyann Tue 28-May-19 23:11:57

we dont want Ruth ,and once you know the facts you wont either.During Thatchers reign the tory vote in Scotland "PLUMMETED" TO JUST 24% disaster according to the media.Along comes Ruth and the vote "soared" to 22% ...the EU vote it was 11% ..now unless my maths is even worse than I suspect 22% is less than that disatrous 24% of the 80's .Ruths own constituency returned a vote of 33% for the SNP .She's every bit as incompetent and as much of a liar as Mrs May...but if you really really want her ,you're very welcome to take her .Thank you ..one less toxic tory to listen to here .

paddyann Tue 28-May-19 23:15:12

can I just add that Scotland hasn't returned a majorityvote for the tories since 1956 thats NINETEEN FIFTY SIX .yet we've had to suffer under them because England wants them.Democracy ? Not in my book its not ,bully boy tactics you'd see in a playground when the BIG boy beats the smaller one into submission.

Granny23 Tue 28-May-19 23:17:11

GG54 Why on earth should I tweet my MP and NS when they are doing everything they can to steer Scotland towards Independence? There is already a majority in the Scottish Parliament in favour of Independence and they have a mandate from the public to hold a second referendum. It is the Westminster Government which has refused to grant the necessary permission, (TM said now is not the time) which they can do because Constitutional matters are reserved to Westminster, i.e. NOT devolved.

If the pollsters are correct and Boris Johnson becomes the PM, then perhaps he WILL allow a Scottish referendum as based on his many contemptuous anti Scottish comments, he probably would be glad to see the back of us.

Mycat As has been discussed many times on these threads, Scotland would not be allowed to join the Euro until its own currency had been established for umpteen years and could easily stall meeting the criteria indefinitely. Do you not think that Brexiting from our biggest trade partner will be more than just BAD for the economy?

As to Ruth Davidson - she declared that this Euro election was a test of public feeling about Independence. Her election leaflet made 14 references to this but did not mention Brexit at all. In the event her Scottish Tories achieved only 11.6% of the votes cast compared with the SNP's 37.9% To which, if following Ruth's logic, you can add the 8.3% who voted for the other Indy supporting Party, the Greens, giving a resounding pro Indy vote of 46.2%.

Personally, I believe that voters in Scotland were mainly voting for remain parties - SNP, Liberal & Green - rather than taking part in Ruth's mini Indyref.

Jane10 Wed 29-May-19 08:09:09

As easily our biggest trading partner is the rest of the UK, it would be just plain daft for Scotland to be independent. This constant whining about yet another referendum is wearing, boring and economically risky.
Only two and a half million taxpayers in Scotland to fund all the non taxpayers and without the benefit of the cash from Westminster is a depressing prospect.
Referendums are divisive and have deeply unpleasant results. If there has to be another one potentially leading to constitutional change there has to be a supermajority in favour ie 65%.

crystaltipps Wed 29-May-19 08:18:05

jane 10 your post could also be used as a reason why a minority in the U.K. shouldn’t force the whole of the country to break ties with its biggest trading partner ( the EU).

Granny23 Wed 29-May-19 08:55:34

Indeed crystaltipps

Have a gander at this graphic which neatly illustrates the shift in opinion in Scotland over recent years.

paddyann Wed 29-May-19 09:08:55

contrast that graphic to the English one which is almost entirely Brexit parties.Scotland is a different country with a totally different attitude to its people and that includes those who are Scottish by choice .WE need immigration ,so do you but sadly your racism gets in the way .

Mycatisahacker Wed 29-May-19 09:12:09

Na Ruth is a class act. She can come here and lead the Tories. Would he a much kinder fairer party

Caledonai14 Wed 29-May-19 09:18:50

I hope Scottish Labour get their act together, because - if Scotland does become independent - Labour has always been a stronger contender for government (allbeit in coalition as per the first two terms of Scottish government) than the Tories and I'd like to see all those with a reasonable chance promoting a strong ethos and a good leader who could steer us through what might be a very difficult time, depending upon how difficult Westminster makes it (and put it this way, they'll never make it easy).

I'd want a free Scotland led by the SNP at first, simply because I don't think either Scottish Labour or Scottish Lib Dems could stand up to their bigger brothers and sisters nationally - though there is a bit more hope for the Lib Dems these days because of their constant position on Europe.

Nationalists have always stated we'd remain in the Commonwealth and I feel there would be a huge support for that... at least in terms of cultural and sporting links.

We also, as I've pointed out elsewhere, must consider the needs and feelings of the million or so Scots who still want Brexit and the many who don't want to break the union.

We have no excuse for forcing through independence without considering the other side's position or giving them a voice and a say. Right now we know only too well exactly what that feels like.

Scotland is better than that. We face many difficulties in the path of freedom, but we must never stoop to the level of the insular Westminster government over the past few years, and the current infighting and deflection of blame to everyone but themselves.

Canada managed to gain independence by famously simply asking politely. It has gone beyond that for Scotland, but we must keep putting our case persuasively and peacefully.

dayvidg Wed 29-May-19 10:42:50

Paddyann - Why is it racist to want to control who comes into the country? The SNP stance that without free movement of people the Scottish economy would greatly suffer is false; nobody is proposing to stop all immigration after Brexit. But why should it be more difficult for a doctor from India to come here than a waiter from Portugal?
Also, how many Labour governments would have would there have been in the last 63 years without the Scottish MP's, so your statement about the English imposing Conservatives on Scotland is not really relevant.
Would the EU welcome Scotland as an independent nation
with its implications for Catalonia?

AlisonKF Wed 29-May-19 10:44:03

Brought up in Scotland but living for fifty odd years in England, I also resent very much being trapped for those years in a predominantly Tory voting rural area in East Anglia. I have felt disenfranchised for all that time, though I have come to love the Eastern Counties. Scotland seems to have got quite a few things right compared to England and the reason may be that it is a largely Tory no go area. The only proper voting democracy is proportional representation. Westminster is out of date and Scotland may do well to free herself from it.

LarrythecatknowsitAll Wed 29-May-19 11:02:50

I think Scotland should go if the majority agree then they can stop blaming Westminster for all their problems.grin

LarrythecatknowsitAll Wed 29-May-19 11:03:21

And take the royals with you wink

sandelf Wed 29-May-19 11:04:00

It is the same for many of the English regions (which have FAR less mention/money/representation than Scotland and Wales) - If we are a United Kingdom (which I rather think is 'less bad' than the alternative) - we have to go with the majority. If one disagrees with a particular choice, put up with it or work on persuasion - not walk out of the room. (Sorry to be blunt). I have lived in - Merseyside (now there's an international minded city completely misunderstood by most of UK), London, Coventry, East Sussex - all special places - East Sussex suffers very badly from being a very poor area in the 'affluent south east'. Just areas I personally know - but have friends in Yorkshire, County Durham - you get the message.

GrAnne2 Wed 29-May-19 11:04:47

Please take Ruth Davidson! Please!!!!

inishowen Wed 29-May-19 11:21:32

The people of Northern Ireland also voted remain but we are obliged to leave because of the rest of UK.

25Avalon Wed 29-May-19 11:32:09

I think Scotland should try and go. I say try and go because I don't think it's that simple. The Eu may not want them. Good luck anyway.

Caledonai14 Wed 29-May-19 11:38:23

The people of Northern Ireland are particularly unlucky that this has all kicked off while their devolved parliament is suspended; one powerful group was bribed to keep the Tories in charge (though that has not worked out exactly well all round) and another powerful group does not take its seats at Westminster on a point of principle.

The people of NI, like the people of Scotland, did indeed reject Brexit by a majority and - for them - the implications of reverting to the days of the Troubles must be very worrying indeed.

The threat of no-deal Brexit has been allowed to hang over us all for far too long while the Tories queue to out-Farage Farage, and to saddle us with years of confusion, poverty and ostricisation.

None of that lot in Westminster should be allowed to take a summer break with the country in the state it is in.

4allweknow Wed 29-May-19 11:44:09

I am still bewildered about the voting in Scotland, not the numbers or the parties, but the reasoning. Can someone please tell me why there is such a massive demand to stay in E.U. yet from all I have very recently read covering back to the last Independent Referendum, if independent Scotland will be out of the EU and have to apply. A huge stumbling block to any quick fix re-entry being Spain who have categorically stated they would object otherwise Catalonia would be demanding independence. Or has Nicola done a behind closed doors deal with John Claude that no one knows about!

minniemouse Wed 29-May-19 11:53:11

In case everyone has forgotten, we in Scotland voted in a 'once in a lifetime' 'Independence vote. By a majority, we decided to remain with the UK. Democracy at work. However, then came the EU referendum. By a majority we voted to leave the EU. Democracy at work again. The losers in both elections have done everything in their power to sabotage both decisions which I find shocking. I am a proud Scot, first, British second. I thought we lived in a Democracy. Apparently not. Disgusted with the whole lot of politicians. Europe has said Scotland does not meet the criteria to join, even if independent. And how on earth is the SNP going to fund an independent Scotland ?

minniemouse Wed 29-May-19 11:54:54

And please, do not think for a minute that the whole of Scotland wants Independence and to remain in the EU. ! Media hype

4allweknow Wed 29-May-19 12:12:47

Second comment on this. Just like many areas in the UK the demographics have changed. In Scotland there seemed to be nothing but coal mines, factories, ship building etc all heavy industries. The notion of being shopkeepers just didnt apply. Unions came on the scene very involved in the heavy industries to better conditions. I think that is why the Labour party garnered so much support especially in Scotland where there wasn't the same spread of wealth. Mrs Thatcher did change the demographic in a way, with the sale of council housing. Up until then home ownership in Scotland was very low. Now people want cheap money to do with want they want rather than an inclusive, good for all way if life hence the demise of Labour in Scotland. On the other hand SNP have almost adopted the Labour ethos in that they are constantly targeting those who are above the living wage level taking into account the higher taxation levels, higher Council Tax levels, higher Land & Property tax levels. So all is not as it seems in Scotland.