Meanwhile in Scotland.....

I think she needs to wait until we find out whether the UK is out, when it will be out and on what terms.

Fortunately Scotland still remains in the UK and the UK still remains in the EU. Long may that continue. We truly are better together.

NS really needs to be a bit clearer than that if she hopes to grow the nationalist vote. She needs to be more proactive and table her intentions (or even a wish list) - that doesn’t require her to wait and see what the rUK is doing.

It is important to understand that the current state of Scotland's finances, when almost all revenue and taxes raised go to Westminster,y decide how much we are going to get back, bears little or no relation to how the economy would fair under Independence. Under the Barnett Formula if there are cuts to the Education, Welfare or Health Budgets for England and Wales (because of the Tories' austerity policies) then the Scottish Budget is cut too, The Scottish Government has no control or influence over how much their block grant will be from year to year. They are at liberty to increase, say, spending on Education, but in order to do so they must make savings or cuts elsewhere. If Scotland were Independent then all taxes, revenues, duties and such things as Oil Licences would go direct to the treasury in Edinburgh and could be spent, saved or invested as the SG saw fit. Currently Scotland is bound to spend within the limits of the block grant - any surplus left over at year end must be returned to the UK treasury and they are not allowed to borrow money, issue bonds, etc. This makes it extremely difficult to plan ahead or invest in infrastructure which will eventually help the economy.

Legislation has been passed by the SG this week, which sets out the path towards a future referendum. NS is aiming for a late 2020 date, when (surely) we will know if the UK is In or Out of Europe.

I’m not sure that’s all quite true. Under the 2016 changes the Barnett formula was guaranteed till 2022 so no reduction in funding. Furthermore of course, the SG has tax raising powers which it can use to raise funds as it sees fit - and they keep every penny of that (on top of the BF).

The SG does have the ability to borrow money under the terms of the settlement and any underspend does not have to be sent back (the significant amount of underspend is v clear).

According to the SH White Paper we should have - in an Indy Scotland - we should have had a ten billion tax take from oil revenues. If I’m not mistaken that figure is nearer 700 million.

SG

Sorry Sir Chenjin, but you are wrong about the SG retaining any extra Tax raised on top of the Barnett Formula.

"The Scottish block grant continues to be calculated by the Barnett formula, but an adjustment needs to be made to reflect that some of the budget is now funded by Scottish tax revenues that were previously retained by the UK Government. There are two steps to the adjustment:
An initial block grant deduction is made for each tax. This is to compensate the UK Government for the tax revenue which is now being retained by the Scottish Government. These adjustments ensure that the UK and Scottish Governments are no better or worse off as a direct result of devolution.
For each subsequent year the block grant adjustments (BGAs) for each tax are grown or "indexed" to take account of changing tax revenue over time."

For further Information Contact
Email: [email protected]

Also the Continuation of the Barnett formula has indeed been guaranteed until 2022, but the actual amount of block grant has not. Therefore it will continue to go up or (usually) down depending on what is spent in RUK. Derek McKay quoted a £2 billion reduction in his budget speech.

The block grant is always indexed upwards. In addition the Scottish devolved taxes are added without ever reducing the block grant. Nothing is retained by the U.K. government.

SirChenjin, gaun yersel

Also - the £2 billion that Derek Mackay talked about was over 8 years of which 6 were prior to the 2016 setting of the fiscal framework. The system as it is now means no reduction in the block grant

SirC - are you being deliberately obtuse? It is quite clear from the quote above that the Block Grant is calculated each year and then the sum raised by Scottish Income Tax is DEDUCTED from the total such that every tax£1 raised in Scotland means £1 deducted from the block grant, leaving Scotland no better off, If the SG decided to raise all Income Tax bands to a higher rate, this increase would also be deducted from the BG leaving Scots Tax payers worse off, with no benefit to the Scottish Budget.

No - are you?

Even if the Scots income tax take was to fall the block grant is adjusted upwards to meet the difference. This was agreed till 2022. If the Scots tax take increases the SG keep that. The fiscal out-turn report explains it all.

OK. So if the Scottish Tax take rises the block grant reduces & if it falls the block grant rises. Yes the SG keep any rise but their block grant falls by the same percentage leaving the total Budget exactly the same.

Could any other poster please comment on this issue as I have lost the will to live trying to explain

my understanding is :

Under the old system

the tax revenue raised in Scotland went directly from HMRC to UK government and returned to Scotland under the Block Grant system.

Under The new system

The tax revenue raised in Scotland goes directly from HMRC to the Scottish Government

and

The block grant is reduced by the amount of income Scotland would have received, had the Scottish Government kept taxes in line with the rest of the UK.

Scotland therefore keeps any additional funds raised through taxes.

Friday's announcement of the huge deficit in tax income in Scotland over the next three years would seem to snooker the possibility of raising any additional funds.

Basically if Scotland tax take is more than the U.K. in per capita terms it keeps the difference. If it doesn’t raise more then it still gets the tax take per capita of the rUK. ie there is no downside.

Granny23 you can only do your best (which you certainly have) so to go back to your OP, yes it is unfair and the politicians who are vying to become our even-more-remote and unelected Prime Minister will have to wake up to the continued dangers of ignoring the electoral will of the Scottish people.

Where I am mystified is that - if the unionists truly believe we are a drain on southern finances (not true as you have repeatedly pointed out) - why does everyone try so hard to keep us wed in a union which rejects spending its public purse on things like prescription and tuition fee fairness for its citizens?

The main threat to Scotland's greater social provision is Brexit, which was not on the cards when we were last given a choice on the union with rUK. Our vote to stay in the EU was also far clearer and by a far bigger margin of vote than the UK one to leave.

Yes, I do understand the frustration of the Brexiteers, but it is no excuse for hauling us over the cliff with them.

Scotland is not the only population that wants to cut apron strings and - yes - both may find it is not all perfect away from the bigger partner (in our case the rUK and in the rUK's case the EU), but doing to us what they say is being done to them solves nothing.

It's also sadly funny seeing arguments about how bad things would be for us outside the UK from people who can't see how awful it's going to be for themselves outwith the EU.

Blind, obtuse paternalism and colonialism started going out of fashion 100 years ago.

I am bamboozled by those posts about taxes and the block grant. Are you saying that the extra tax thathigh earners pay in Scotland goes to Westminster and therefore no benefit accrues to Scotland?

No Sue, that doesn’t happen

Thank you Almeg2001 for the clarification. I have 'got it' now.

Moving back to the question of Scotland's entry to v remaining in the EU? try this:

Just a couple of weeks ago French MP Jean-Christophe Agarde even wrote in The Scotsman newspaper of all places that Scotland would be welcome. Agarde set out that France made a mistake in 2014 in refusing to back independence and should not do so in the future writing:

I deeply believe that an independent Scotland would have its place in Europe with no conditions and without delay, something of which it cannot be deprived

‘‘ The deadlines and conditions imposed during the joining process are dependent on candidate states complying with EU treaties and regulations known as ‘acquis communautaires’. ‘‘In this case, an independent Scotland would become one of the most developed states in the EU, having complied with the ‘acquis’ for several decades

‘‘ ^Now that the Spanish veto has been lifted, nothing would prevent Scotland’s integration by way of an exceptional procedure, similar to the one used by the EEC when it integrated the German Democratic Republic in 1990 ^”

So how could an independent Scotland with such a large economic deficit possibly be allowed to join? One politician selling an article to a regional newspaper does not constitute an agreement!

As I have said before, the current economic deficit bears no relation to the situation that would prevail in an Independent Scotland, when we no longer are charged for a share of e.g the UK deficit, major projects (High speed rail, etc) which are of no benefit to Scotland, nuclear weapons, which we do not want and so on. Scotland is a rich Nation, with the best educated workforce in Europe.

Scotland has many advantages of great value in the modern world. Within the UK, Scotland has:
32% of the UK land mass but only
8.4% of the population = room for growth
26% of renewable energy
90% of hydro power
62% of the maritime area
70% of fish landings
90% of fresh water
60% of timber production
96% of Crude Oil and 63% of Natural Gas production

Considering Europe as a whole, Scotland has
25% of wind energy
25% tidal energy resource
10% of wave power potential.

Given the above it is not unreasonable to jalousie that RUK is desperate to hang on to Scotland and that the EU is keen to have Scotland a member.

That's not really answering the question from Jane10 though. Given that the size of our deficit currently prevents us from joining, what are the plans for gaining entry? I haven't seen anything from the SG that addresses that, nor has there been a clear response from the collective EU member states which sets out the path for our membership.

It's all very similar to the the rhetoric used by Farage et al - the UK has X number of wonderful things, the EU wants us and our money, under independence (I see Farage is now using that word) we wouldn't have to spend Y on things in other parts of Europe...but no (or very little) actual detail.

we dont have a deficit as tweeted to me this morning this is the real situation

Every year we bake a huge pie, then give it to Westminster. They reciprocate by giving us back a slice of our own pie. Then they buy another pie and tell us we owe them a slice of that too as they ate it on our behalf. It's time we just started eating our own pie.

If we didn't have to pay for Englands lifestyle ..thats the one THEY cant afford we would be a very wealthy country .Sadly its like pissing in the wind trying to get that through to hardline unionists.I'm not sure if its a genetic issue that stops them understanding or if they've just been brainwashed all their lives to believe we are too wee ,too poor and too stupid to run our own country.
Malta gained independence with nothing like the assets we have and they are doing just fine .
Lets leave Westminster to fend for themselves and use our revenue to run Scotland .This is not a new thing they've been robbing us blind for centuries and yes..we were too stupid to allow it . Even when the figures were published every year!!Thankfully there's a growing number who understand the truth now .

Perhaps not directly related, but another sign of Scotland's position in the EU.

THE SNP is set for unprecedented influence over the future shape of the EU with the party’s most senior MEP poised to become leader of a key group in the European Parliament

Alyn Smith is expected to be confirmed tomorrow as the President of the European Free Alliance (EFA), which sits with the Greens in the parliament. The Greens-EFA is on course to be one of two political groups which will hold the balance of power in the parliament after a 40-year-old alliance between the centre-right European People’s Party and Socialists and Democrats lost its majority in the elections .