what a breath of fresh air, common sense and intelligent analysis of the current dire situation this country is in. Irrespective of how one voted.
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Brexit - Reith lecture
(14 Posts)I agree with applegran. I think there is no sensible option other than a confirmatory vote because we need to know what people want in the light of so much new information. I don't know how we get to that point though with potential PMs trying to outdo each other offering the hardest Brexit possible. I also don't understand why they think they can renegotiate, must be missing something!
Luckygirl, yes, this is what many of us said right from the start: the referendum should never have happened. I wrote to my MP and expressed this view. The answer was that it was a democratic process and the leave vote had to be implemented.
I'm not sure, Joelsnan, how you are thinking here. Do you mean that it is too late now to listen to the voice of reason? Some leave voters may begin to realise how unwise the referendum was. At least one would hope that they would stop making daft comments like ”we won, you lost, get over it” and also not make the ridiculous reference to the ”will of the people” because it is just that – ridiculous.
Well, do you know, if you look back on all my posts on this subject, this is exactly what I have been saying over and over again! - that there are sound reasonings on either side of the argument; that a referendum is inappropriate for decisions about this subject and should never have happened; and that this has led to intolerance of others' views, polarization and a climate where compromise has become impossible. You have only got to read the Gransnet threads on the topic to see how true this all is.
I wonder if he is about to come up with a solution too, as this definitely eludes me!
It’s on now, r4.
Fine to state this in retrospect, but it solves nothing
I don't understand your comment, Joelsnan.
What are you referring to as being stated in retrospect?
And what isn't it going to solve?
Agree Joelsnan
Fine to state this in retrospect, but it solves nothing.
Thanks for posting, will see if I can find the lecture.
How could this get wider publicity? The national press, BBC, social media.......?
Thanks Greta.
Absolutely! It will be interesting to find out how Cameron reflects on the referendum in his autobiography when it comes out.
I heard it too and had the same thoughts as, I think, you did. My dilemma is that the referendum was subverted in several illegal ways (e.g. by Cambridge Alalytica, over spending and lies written on the side of a bus) but we are now being tied to the outcome of that dodgy referendum. In principle I think we should continue to be a representative democracy, without referenda. However, we had one referendum and I think now we do need another one (the last one ever I hope!) which could be run according to law and decent principles, and based now on knowledge of what Brexit would or could mean. And in other coutries the precendent has been that a referendum on major constitutional change needs a large proportion of the electorate to succeed - as much as 60:40. We only had 37% of the electorate voting to leave - many in the electorate did not vote at all. Also other countries which do have referenda have one on the principle and then a second one when the actual details are known. I think these points - arising from the Reith lecture - should be raised more clearly in national news. If GN can play a part in this - that would be great! Thank you for raising it.
Yesterday morning I listened to Jonathan Sumption's Reith lecture ”In praise of Politics”. The following extract I found particularly interesting and relevant:
Extract:
”...There are serious arguments for leaving the European Union and serious arguments for remaining. I’m not going to express a view about either because they are irrelevant to my theme. I want to focus on the implications for the way in which we govern ourselves. Brexit is an issue on which people feel strongly and on which Britain is divided, roughly, down the middle. These divisions are problematic, not just in themselves but because they roughly correspond to other divisions in our society, generational, social, economic, educational and regional. It’s a classic case for the kind of accommodations which a representative legislature is best placed to achieve.Europe has now become the defining issue which determines party allegiance for much of the electorate. As a result, we have seen both major national parties which previously supported membership of the European Union adjust their policy positions to the new reality. Ina sense, that is what parties are for, it’s what they have always done, but there remains a large body of opinion, in both major national parties, which are strongly opposed to Brexit. One would therefore ordinarily expect the political process to produce a compromise not entirely to the liking of either camp but just about acceptable to both. Now that may yet happen but it has proved exceptionally difficult. Why is that?
The fundamental reason is the referendum. A referendum is a device for bypassing theordinary political process. It takes decision-making out of the hands of politicians, whose interest is generally to accommodate the widest possible range of opinion, and places it in the hands of individual electors who have no reason to consider any opinion but their own. The very object of a referendum is to inhibit an independent assessment of the national interest by professional politicians, which is why it might be thought rather absurd to criticise them for failing to do so. A referendum obstructs compromise by producing a result in which 52 per cent of voters feel entitled to speak for the whole nation and 48 per cent don’t matter at all.This is, after all, the tacit assumption of every minister who declares that the British people has approved this or that measure as if only the majority were part of the British people. It is the mentality which has created an unwarranted sense of entitlement among the sort of people who denounce those who disagree with them as enemies, traitors, saboteurs, even Nazis. This is the authentic language of totalitarianism. It is the lowest point to which a political community can sink, short of actual violence.
I am certainly not suggestingthat the referendum was unlawful, I am simply suggesting that it was extremely unwise and that the last three years are an illustration of quite a lot of the reasons why.” End of extract
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