Euthanasia

Another very difficult case in France recently- that illustrates how complicated and different each case can be.

Surely the wishes of the patient, the decision of the spouse and legal guardian- should come over and above that of parents.

www.nytimes.com/2019/05/20/world/europe/france-vincent-lambert-life-support.html?fbclid=IwAR2_dcds6h8UwcMmMURXHHVd09froGbp6h9O6UtTgvcaj70xrxLhMTrbJTM

And again, a ver different situation...

In the UK, some people are afraid that 'euthanasia, or assisted dying' could be either inforced or insiduously pushed upon patients (and I disagree- with proper controls there is no reason whatsoever that it could or would) ...
but in countries with private health care - the real worries are that people are terrified that their expressed wishes re end of life care will be ignored- even when clearly stated in writing, and when Next of Kin and relatives all agree. Life prolonged and expensive treatment given - because it is a really good business:

www.huffpost.com/entry/end-of-life-care_n_5878344be4b0b3c7a7b0aac6?fbclid=IwAR226paL6AVRAf_DFwgV6h6Y0AGhJja19m68kx3elK3hmJKCoNDgWqimtTI&guccounter=1

enforced, insidiously.

Thank you- so grateful, as a foreigner to have your help and support.

What about the subject matter- any opinion?

Euthanasia should only be administered to those who have sound minds and who know the prognosis of their illness such as in MND.

Few countries allow euthanasia- in fact, I don't know of any. Don't know of any country either where 'assisted death' is allowed for anyone who is not of sound mind or compos mentis, and clearly able to make the decision.

Switzerland does allow 'assisted death' for those who suffer from a multitude of non life-threatening illnesses and disabilities due to old age, that severely spoil their quality of life, and again, only if compos mentis. It is not allowed to be 'administered' by third party either. The patient has to make a very clear statement some days before, on their own so any outside pressures or hesitation can be detected- and again on the day. They have to take the potion themselves, or press the trigger themselves if swallowing is difficult- it is all recorded and given to police immediately after death.

The case in OP is not 'euthanasia' and it is not 'assisted death' either.

Jura2 I asked my dd and she said that her lecturers teach that euthanasia and assisted suicide are different terms for the same thing.

Well, yes and no, sorry. Euthanasia means 'good death' (greek I believe) - but in reality, they are two completely different things altogether, truly. I do not know any doctor who does not clearly understand the difference.

Euthanasia means that a doctor is giving a drug to end someones's life - either with, or without, clear consent.

Assisted death means providing the means and support to a person, so that they can end their life safely, surely and without suffering - and it has to be their own choice, compos mentis, and their own action.

TBH I am really concerned if that is what is being taught in UK universities currently.

This might help:

www.bbc.com/news/uk-47158287

Thanks for the link, very interesting. Poor Mr Conway. I note from the article that Scotland, where she is studying, doesn't have a specific offence of assisting a suicide, so maybe that's why the two are considered to be one and the same.

I won't press her for more details as she's taking her finals right now - she's got enough on her plate without me hassling her!

This article is really interesting and, as a Member of Exit- my real concern- and possibly that of many older people and GN members. Two of my sister-in-laws, also members of Exit, waited too late- and are now condemned to live to the bitter end and indignities of Alzheimer's or advanced dementia.

www.bbc.com/news/stories-47047579

I won't make the same 'mistake' for sure. Discussed with OH, who totally agrees for himself too- and both DDs fully understand and would back me up, if ... ever.

Yes, but as you've said many times in many threads, you came to live here in the 70s (1973?) and have and do spend plenty of time here on holidays and have a strong foothold in England.
I would have imagined your command of English to be superior.
Back to the thread.
It is my view that if a person is of sound mind and feels that their quality of life is so poor that they are constantly unhappy and looking for ways and means to end it, then it must be given due weight.
As long as the decision is not the result of coercion or stress by another party, then their voice must be heard.
Not to do so, places an intolerable burden on the incapacitated (whether mentally or physically) to exist in a world they cannot enjoy to any degree.

Hmmm... It would be very hard for me to watch my young daughter (or son, for that matter) die. And yes, I would try to stop them if it were a matter of jumping of slitting their wrists or something like that. But tying them down and force-feeding them? That's torture, I imagine, when you're in that state of mind. I don't think I could do that/see that done to my daughter (or son).

If only this girl could have been made to see that by dying she was giving another victory to her rapists. Or that there would be a light at the end of her sad, painful tunnel if she stuck w/ her treatments and got counseling (maybe she did, IDK) But maybe all that was tried to no avail.

Thinking of reading her book to try to understand better. But IDK, might be too depressing a read.

Gabriella, what I can't understand is your need to correct others when you own English is not that great. It seems odd drawing attention to yourself in that way.

GG54 : 'I would have imagined your command of English to be superior.' ...

lol, such great expectations. I type fast, don't check, and do not use a spellchecker. So I make mistakes in French even ...German, Italian...and English. Shame there is no edit function on GN, but this is a conversation, not Cambridge Proficiency Exam. Bisous from sunny Switzerland.

GracesGranMK3We can't expect to understand all of the people all of the time and I certainly don't expect (or indeed want) you to understand me.
I don't understand most of the views in your posts but I refrain from pointing that out to you as I needn't read if I note your name above the comment.
How about agreeing to disagree.

Starlady, yes, this is how I see it too.

I wasn't commenting on your views Gabriella; I think we are aware aware of them by now. I was commenting on your extreme bad manners in correcting other's posts while being so very far from perfect in your own. It is just another part of your hubris when discussing I suppose but it is an extremely rude and arrogant way to behave. But there we are; you obviously care for very little in this world unless it makes you wealthier or undermines someone else - a typical Tory in fact.

I'm no Tory so don't dare ascribe your own ideas of my voting preferences, to me.
Unless you have a mandate to be the mouthpiece for the whole GN community, then the use of the word 'we' is out of place.
Don't start telling me what I can and can't write.
There are moderators whose job that is and as you know so much, you will also be aware that I don't give 2 hoots what you think.

I dare to do what I dare GabriellaG54. I do not think I will be the only one surprised to find you are now declaring yourself "no Tory". That is certainly not the impression you have given as far as I am concerned. I wonder where your extremely right-wing vote goes in that case? Obviously, that is yours to know and something I am left to surmise from your comments.

I have never told you what you may or may not write and what you "can" is merely down to your mental or physical capacity. However, your protestations seem odd when we remember how many times you have corrected others. Perhaps you have decided you are above other posters? It seems you may comment on the other posters spelling and grammar but I should not be allowed to comment on your manners when you do.

I am well aware of how little I know about many things in comparison to some Gabriella, while you, on the other hand, according to what you have told us, hold yourself and your family aloft as arbiters of how we should all live and behave. You tell us of your career, your husband's job, your children's career path and hold these up for us to see as a shining example.

The minute you started to criticise others for their spelling and grammar you opened the door to them criticising you. So yes, I feel I may look very carefully at what you have to say.

I am not without sympathy for some form of assisted dying for those who are terminally ill and whose lives have become unbearable, and indeed may wish the same for myself at some time in the future, who knows how they may feel under such circumstances. What I am concerned about is the type of euthanasia that I have read about which is practiced in the Netherlands for example. You say jura that you are unaware of anywhere where assisted dying is practised where someone is not of sound mind and clearly able to make the decision. I have read that people have been assisted to die in the Netherlands when they have dementia or suffering a mental illness, so I wonder what their criteria of sound mind is?

This has to be one of the most difficult questions to put to a country. I feel this is one case where Citizens Assemblies would really work. They disseminate information to all, they give time for quality reflection, the use good facilitators which aids good quality discussion and they have been shown to produce high quality deliberation.

I read that her childhood of abuse including sexual assault had become too much to live with. They and she had tried everything.

She turned down fluids and food in her last weeks.

If she was reliving sexual abuse in her mind, over and over, I have some compassion for her suffering.

Lazigirl, I believe in the Netherlands, being helped to die when no longer of absolutely clear mind, is based on very strong advanced directives- which make it 100% clear what the person's wishes are when they get to that stage.

In Switzerland, this is not possible.

Pros and cons are hard to clarify. In Switzerland, it means that someone diagnosed with dementia or Alzheimer's and who do not want to live for years with increased loss of dignity, will have to choose to die in the early stages, even though they could otherwise have a year or more of decent quality of life. In the Netherlands, they can enjoy that year or few of decent quality of mind, having put very clear advanced directives in place, in the confident knowledge that when they get to the next stage, and before they lose it altogether, they will be able to get assistance even if they are a bit 'doolally'.