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Tory v Farage

(24 Posts)
Whitewavemark2 Sat 08-Jun-19 12:09:32

I think there is little doubt that the Tories are running scared, just as they did last time before calling that ill fated referendum.

They are terrified that Farage will take their seats and as a result the Tory party is being dragged ever more to the right.

The Conservative party has always been characterised by what you could describe as being more comfortable with the familiar, it is the party of Burke and Oakshott. The party of the tried and tested, and the cherished institutions tested over centuries.

Not the party of Farage nationalists though, who are ready to slash and burn at every opportunity. It has no patience with abstract concepts like democracy or freedom. It is little wonder that communists like Claire Fox, feel comfortable in this melee.

And now Tories are following this lead. Look at Raab’s willingness to suspend parliament if he couldn’t get his way.

That would be as direct assault on parliamentary democracy as could be imagined. . Of course Raab was denounced by parliamentary colleagues and slapped down by the speaker.
The worrying thing is that he was simply trying to be more macho than Loathsome or Johnson, both of whom have taken up the nationalist baton and are running with it. They are not heeding history as traditional conservatism has always done, which has always been a respecter of law and treaty. They are playing fast and loose with Ireland and Scotland, and cavalier in their casual disregard with the union. They are becoming revolutionaries because they are allowing Farage to dictate the terms of nationalism, which rejects everything the Tories have always held dear.

Whitewavemark2 Sat 08-Jun-19 12:10:27

The above was partly taken from an article by J Freedland.

Nonnie Sat 08-Jun-19 12:18:39

I'm having difficulty believing they have a plan at all. Same old Brexit mantras over and over again and never a mention of those who don't want to leave. Saying they will negotiate when the EU has said it won't, saying leave with no deal when they know most don't want that. I simply think they are scared of a confirmatory vote because they would have to tell their constituents whether they want to stay or leave and that might be different to what they said in 2016. They are worried that if they pick the wrong one they will lose their seats at the next GE.

I wish they could have a secret vote on remaining or leaving then they could vote according to their conscience rather than for keeping their jobs. Cynical? To right.

Caledonai14 Sat 08-Jun-19 12:45:43

The EU showed patience with two requests for extensions because - since before Christmas - the Tories couldn't get their act together over Brexit. The EU told the British government they had until Halloween to sort it out and "please do not waste this time".

We must always remember that - if the Tories and their allies had stuck to their plan (negotiated by T. May and co and including the Northern Irish backstop which was inserted by the British) - we would have been out on March 29th, and at least by now we would know the painful truth.

Current chancellor Philip Hammond has said a No Deal Brexit can't possibly happen on October 31 because there isn't time to plan for a crash out and no time to renegotiate a deal (I don't know why any of the leadership candidates think that's even remotely possible given everything that was tried and said in the past year).

At least one Tory leadership candidate, Dominic Raab has said he would consider suspending Parliament if No Deal was likely to be rejected.

This is taking back control? This is reclaiming our sovereign powers? What democracy?

And the 16 million who wanted to stay, the millions of leavers who were told it would be easy and painless, the Northern Irish whose peace is under threat and the Scots who voted against and sent a further message via the ballot box in the EU elections?

UK democracy shrivelled and died a long time ago.

We are now entirely in the hands of 150,000 Tory party members.

And once they have made their Hobson's Choice, all the UK politicians will go on holiday, after which the party conference season will take us nicely up to Halloween when our politicians will yet again blame the EU for whatever happens.

EllanVannin Sat 08-Jun-19 15:13:37

They're a waste of space. One drinks himself into oblivion and a few of the others were alleged pot-heads. What a crew !

Dinahmo Sun 09-Jun-19 01:24:56

I trust that the many on GN who dislike John Bercow will realise what a good Speaker he is in slapping down Raab.

As regards Farage, surely he must be on the way out because despite all is bluster the Brexit Party didn't do so well in the European election for MEPS and to lose at Peterborough when he was expecting a walk over. What more is there to be said?

crystaltipps Sun 09-Jun-19 08:03:33

Despite being all over the BBC Andy radio, I think Farage has reached his peak. People with any brain will realise that his rebranded UKIP party is just a one trick pony, will have dodgy candidates, and no real policies in a GE. As for wanting a place in the negotiations- I didn’t think they wanted any negotiations.

crystaltipps Sun 09-Jun-19 08:04:29

I’m not sure what BBC Andy radio is - 🙂 should obvs read BBC and the radio😂

mcem Sun 09-Jun-19 08:38:16

Cal another excellent post!
(I do hope you aren't mightily offended because I 've abbreviated your name)

EllanVannin Sun 09-Jun-19 08:47:37

Martin Lewis is the only one who talks sense on this subject what a shame he isn't an MP !

Urmstongran Sun 09-Jun-19 09:34:59

Yet the alternative .... Labour? News today:

Labour discusses plans to bring in a 10 hour week and slash pay by 75% under a radical scheme to tackle climate change.

The report by the Autonomy think-tank called for 'rapid, far-reaching and unprecedented changes in all aspects of society' to cut carbon emissions, including dramatically limiting how long people spend at work.

Shadow Chancellor John McDonnell said of the document: 'This is a vital contribution to the growing debate around free time and reducing the working week.'

Leo Murray, who advises shadow Treasury minister Clive Lewis, backed the report's findings, saying: 'I like this take a lot’.

The document, called The Ecological Limits of Work, was savaged by critics who said its suggestions would wreck the economy.

Crazy stuff!!

MaizieD Sun 09-Jun-19 09:39:36

Don't worry, Ug, it's not actually Labour policy. Just ideas being tossed around by interested parties. People with open minds, of course.

Whitewavemark2 Sun 09-Jun-19 09:50:27

I feel quite optimistic this morning.

I have been reading and listening to the Brexit supporters including of course Farage.

Their argument is a busted flush it is obvious. They are unable to answer with any sense any if the problems posed.

They are even going so far as to threaten a no deal against the democratic vote, and suggesting that they will request the Queen to shut down parliament.

How on earth can we consider that these people know what they are talking about?

Whitewavemark2 Sun 09-Jun-19 09:52:05

I have also read that remain supporters are absolutely rock solid in their determination.

Leave voters are far more wobbly, probably because they can’t come up with a sensible argument.

Nonnie Sun 09-Jun-19 11:14:44

Oh White I do hope you are right.

Nonnie Sun 09-Jun-19 11:35:41

Leave or Remain please read: www.ft.com/content/8d7d7e0e-8719-11e9-a028-86cea8523dc2?segmentId=5b3cb929-a23e-88ae-662f-4cae036b0dee

"• Many Tories are cynics faking it. They publicly back no deal, knowing it would be a disaster, but are counting on the rest of parliament to stop it. They just want to sound hard, because they live in fear of deselection by their hard-Brexiter local parties. Tory MPs know that the job market for ex-Tory MPs is currently pretty weak."

and so much more common sense too.

Whitewavemark2 Sun 09-Jun-19 11:44:29

nonnie that fits with what Freedland said about the Tories moving to the right because they are spineless idiots

Nonnie Sun 09-Jun-19 12:58:54

White I find it so worrying that none of their reasons are to do with what is best for the country.

quizqueen Sun 09-Jun-19 13:15:56

We've had over 45 years of being governed by a foreign organisation. In that time there's been a massive increase in the UK population, industries going out of business or being bought up by foreign ones and relocated, increases in crime and the types of crime, a shortage of housing, price increases, overspending etc. Being a member of the EU hasn't prevented any of those things happening; in fact, it's often actively encouraged a lot of it.

We voted to stay in 1975. I accepted I'd lost. Now, by majority vote, it's time to spend the coming years controlling our own affairs. There have always been lies and truths on both sides of the argument but, when we are truly independent again, if we make mistakes, they will be our mistakes. Time for the losers to stop moaning and get behind making the country become more prosperous again. You can start that by choosing to buy British as much as possible

If we fail, then the UK can always have a vote to decide whether it wants to reapply in 50 years or so, if the EU still exists in the future but, I dread to think how we would be treated then and what rules would apply.

From the day after the Referendum, the government should have been preparing for last March by establishing new and strengthening existing industries, particularly in energy, transport and food production, and establishing a new fishing fleet and encouraging other new business starts up and entrepreneurs. Instead, we have had weak leadership and constant challenges against democracy and have agreed to pay a ridiculous price to the EU for our 'freedom' which could, and should, be spent here, while still allowing them to have control over affairs.

Dinahmo Sun 09-Jun-19 15:19:57

Industries being bought by foreign companies happened because the government failed to stop it. It's called encouraging investment! As a result some of our rail companies are owned by the state owned railways of other European countries. Contracts for new rail carriages for example are given to other countries, the majority of our water companies are owned by overseas companies from Hong, the US, Canada and Australia and many more.

This is not the fault of the EU but a direct result of privatisation and lack of government interference.

Whitewavemark2 Sun 09-Jun-19 15:22:55

qq there are so many holes in your argument it is difficult to know where to start!

crystaltipps Sun 09-Jun-19 17:20:59

I didn’t know the government was in the business of “establishing new industries and fishing fleets”, sounds a bit like nationalisation to me. Should have put Chris Grayling in charge.

Nonnie Sun 09-Jun-19 17:22:57

I'll start White and you can carry on.

quiz "We've had over 45 years of being governed by a foreign organisation" this is so basic it amazes me that you don't know we are not! The EU is 28 different countries who make laws together and we still 'rule' the UK. None of the things in that paragraph are the fault of the EU.

We do 'control our own affairs', many of the EU laws were already laws in the UK and the EU took them up. Most of our laws are make in our own parliament. Perhaps you could explain what you mean by this comment, giving examples?

"If we fail" we will be broken and may have to beg to rejoin with no special privileges. We would not be invited back on our current terms and would have to do things like adopt the Euro and join the Shengen. We would almost certainly lose our veto.

There is a limit to the amount the government can do to "establishing new and strengthening existing industries, particularly in energy, transport and food production, and establishing a new fishing fleet and encouraging other new business starts up and entrepreneurs." without privatisation. Can you imagine the outcry if the government gave money to the fishing industry which is mainly owned by big businesses?

I'm sorry Quiz but I do feel you should do a little more research in order to understand the implications of leaving the EU. If it were as simple and good as you suggest why hasn't it been done in 3 years? It would have saved MPs a lot of hassle to just do it and damn the outcome.

Caledonai14 Sun 09-Jun-19 20:25:15

Hi Mcem, I've been away all day, so just catching up now.

I don't mind what version of my name appears here and Cal is probably simplest. I originally chose Caledonai, with a wee misspelling at the end in case there were other Caledonias, but I put the number 14, not realising it would look like Caledonail. You live and learn.

I'm so glad this thread is staying on track with reasoned arguments and great back-ups. Thanks to all, especially Whitewavemark2 for posting.

More Gransnetters on focus groups would be a good idea.