Cry, our beloved country

Who has read the book Cry, the Beloved Country?

What is happening here is perhaps as described in the OP, but nothing like the events in the book.

I saw this quote today. In or out of the EU and no matter which political party is in power I hope that my children and grandchildren won’t have a future in a country that’s to be pitied.

oh, I see that has already been suggested

Besides which, the title of the thread would have to be changed.
"Cry, the Beloved State"

anyone who thinks we aren’t a country can’t have travelled much if they think we are identical to France, Germany, Italy etc.

I was shocked to heard about the elderly grandmother who may be deported from Australia; however, her visa ran out a while ago and I do not think she is self-funding. Despite that, I hope the Australian authorities grant her leave to remain.
I haven't heard about the young child.
They are not totally ruthless, they do accept refugees and many, many immigrants - but they are discerning.

The same thing has happened here, ~Terribull, with Commonwealth citizens (Canadian, Australian, Ghanaian etc) being deported from the UK so perhaps now there are rumours that the same could happen to EU citizens, people are suddenly becoming more aware.

ah lemon, sharp as a tack,the not thy.

Yes, a good book ( Cry, the beloved country) by Alan Paton,
I read this when young and carefree, I expect it’s out of print like most old books now.

Great book btw. Cry thy beloved Country.

"I cannot see anything wrong with having to prove you are able to support your family before moving to a new country. It happens in Australia, New Zealand and Canada and many more"

Yes I can attest to that GG, many years ago when I was married to my first husband we applied to go and live in Australia, he was working for a big American bank and had been told he could get a transfer to Australia if he wanted it. He was from overseas anyway and a lot of his family were there already. I remember going to an interview at I think Australia House which was quite gruelling. They wanted to know that we had somewhere to stay in the form of sponsors, how much money we were going to be bringing with us, we had a house to sell and they wanted to know chapter and verse how much equity we had in it, confirmation of husband's prospective employment. We were also told that we wouldn't be eligible for any form of benefits until we had worked for 7 years and put something back into their system. The rather snappy interviewer also told me that I'd be more of a problem, as husband had already uprooted himself once so was therefore more adaptable, but I'd be homesick That interview wasn't a particularly pleasant experience and the resounding message was "we don't want anyone to be a burden on our country" We did however get the required residents' visa stamps in our passports, but in the end we had second thoughts, my husband told me "I don't want to go, I think I'd really miss England too much, among other things, I love the seasons here", just didn't want those everlasting blue skies

I have also read recently that Australia plans to deport a very old grandma back to England, all her family are there, she's in her 90s and the elderly persons' home she is in has become too expensive after she suffered a stroke, she has no remaining relatives here. Plus also a family with a young child who needs expensive specialist health care, have also been asked to leave. Ruthless were my thoughts !

Hear, hear GG13

It’s great to have some facts in place of hyperbole!

Positive message. Belonging to the EU is a good thing. It no more doesn't makes me any less British than being British makes me any less English. Pooling sovereignty gives that sovereignty more agency not less. We have deals and arrangements within the 28 that we could not possibly get if we pitch ourselves against 27. That promise was simply not true - like so many that were made.

Your title should read- 'cry, our beloved member state'-that's all we are until we get out of the EU; we are not a country in our own right at the moment!
Absolute rubbish! Of course we are a country. You only have to visit any other country in the EU to see how they all have their own individual identities and differences.
What do you think will change when we become "a country in our own right"?

Your title should read- 'cry, our beloved member state'-that's all we are until we get out of the EU; we are not a country in our own right at the moment!

Positive messages and facts should be welcome on this thread GG13 as a balanced view.

Having just had our AC’s married partner “fill in the form on line” and be accepted immediately I cannot see how I am meant to respond jura2.
Also a good friend (Godparent to one of our children) has been here for 40 years married to a Brit has also just completed this form and accepted.

I can only speak from experience rather than “what maybe”

Horse passports are nothing to do with the EU!!!

Horses have always travelled worldwide for competitions.
(I am a horse owner). Horses regularly fly to America, Australia for races, 3 day events, Showjumping Grand Prix etc. Horses and competitors from outside the EU come to EU Countries to compete also.

I cannot see anything wrong with having to prove that you are able to support your family before moving to a new country. It happens with people wishing to move here from outside the EU, it happens in Australia, New Zealand, Canada and many more.

GG13: 'jura2 I have an extremely good understanding actually as this applies to immediate family.'

and yet you have no sympathy and cannot see how stressful it must be for them, and so many others in such cases.

If a British citizen lives abroad, and is currently married to a non-EU citizen- bringing said spouse to the UK to live is VERY complicated- and for many, just impossible, as they caanot prove they will have an income sufficient to care for wife and children. If they are not married- it is even more difficult.

This will apply to those married to EU citizens soon- I can assure you it is not just the case of signing a few bits of paper.
So how can anyone say this is ridiculous and hysterical

And yes, you can laugh. But those citizens have dogs and other pets, many who have chosen to live in rural areas got horses, etc- that they know they may not bring over if they have to return.

Grannygravy13 Much science fiction becomes reality in due course. Picture phones, full body scanners, moon landing, tasers, self-driving cars, robots/replicants, reality TV, Big Brother (constant surveillance), smart homes, antibiotic resistance, illegal organ harvesting, etc, etc, etc, are all themes that can be found in various books and films - some from years before scientists and engineers had even considered them.

Several of the disturbing scenarios portrayed in Years and Years could be seen as an extension of trends that are occurring now - extreme weather causing massive population displacements, draconian measures introduced to deal with refugees, complete dependence on digital communications leading to cyber terrorism, ultra-nationalist political leaders coming to the fore, implantation of chips into the body to replace external gadgets (such as mobile phones), areas of deprivation designated as controlled criminal areas requiring passes to enter and leave, re-criminalisation of certain activities - eg homosexuality, etc, etc.

Of course these trends do not inevitably lead to the sort of dystopia portrayed but there appears to be little recognition of and discussion about the potential dangers.

Unfortunately even when things go tits up the leavers will still blame Europe and ‘lefties”
Our country is virtually finished now, no I m not having nightmares, I m not wringing my hands, and not holding my head, but I know we are heading towards suicide

Teetime I read your comment "even the sky can't stop crying" this morning and it has stayed with me all day. That feels so true.

It is not a question about being inflamed by social media. Gransnet apart, I rarely even look at it. I read real paper newspapers.

But this week, my generation of my grandfathers family met for our annual social that happened to be at my house. With spouses there were 20 of us. Age range from 65 - 80.

Usually the conversation is about families, upwards, now deceased, and downwards and more general topics. This year for the first time ever it slid, very eliptically into politics. As far as I could see there was not a single leaver among us and generally there was a deep concern about the current political chaos and fears about global warning.

This is not the first time over recent months I have found in meetings with friends where politics has never impinged, the conversations start sliding that way and people are talking about their fears for the future of this country, for us and our children and grand children.

I am not usually a catastophist, as I said on this thread or possible another. I have always been one of life's Pollyannas, but I think the quality of our political leaders at present is so very, very poor, and the chance that an election will give any party a clear majority so unlikely that I can see political confusion continuing for some years. Enough for any benefits of Leave (if there are any) to be lost in the morass of squabbling parties getting like the Belgians and Israelis and being completely unable to cobble together any kind of working government for months if not years (Belgium managed 589 days without a government recently). More frighteningly the thought that there could be the remote possibility of a majority government, when the leaders and decision makers in both parties are so abjectly inadequate.

jura2 I have an extremely good understanding actually as this applies to immediate family.

Day 6 in your post of Sun 16-Jun-19 18:23:34 you keep saying "my point is" but you make no point other than to make disrespectful comments about anyone who doesn't agree with you. But what should we agree with?

You offer no knowledge, no insight into how being out of the EU would change us. Yes, over many posts you have offered a lot of slight and slander to other people, to politicians, to anyone who isn't you but other than unrealistic dreams of us outstripping our current position you offer nothing, nada, nix.

Leaving the EU is going to be both a huge change and an upheaval for all we have grown used to. Once we leave, that day, not sometime later (unless we negotiate that transition) there will be political, legal, economic and social consequences. Any other view is dreamland.

None of this offers us an improved lifestyle. They are now very few who say that would happen. It is just a question of how bad it will be. And you Day 6 simply do not know. For all your pretence at bravura, like the rest of us, you will have to make the best of whatever comes our way.

So, Day6, what happens on Day 1, the day we leave? What will be difficult and what will continue as usual. You, who are so sure we will all be fine, tell me what you know. Add to the sum of my knowledge.

And if things go wrong in any way, big or small, tell me how many people will admit to it being their will the government carried out or how quickly we will hear that "it wasn't them".

And tell me Day6 how you can justify leaving a deep free trade agreement with what will be our largest market for at least the next generation and turn that to trading with them on WTO terms because "that's how we trade with everyone else" while arguing at the same time that we need to get out of the EU to have preferential deals with large parts of the rest of the world, because our current terms with them are not good enough? Explain please - as I do not get it.

And the problem is, neither do you but you would carry out this "experiment" whatever the experts tell you and whatever it does to those who never chose it simply because you don't know what you don't know and will never admit to that fact.

GG13 - if a British person in the EU cannot remain there, due to being unable to get permit, or insufficient salary- and has to come back to UK with a foreign spouse, and children- they will have to have a job and 18.000 going up to 23.000 and more if children involved - or not bring in spouse and/or children. Even much more complicated if not married. You have no idea.