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The people who have everything also run everything.

(237 Posts)
Lessismore Fri 05-Jul-19 11:14:44

An interesting quotation from Gary Young's article in todays Guardian.

Whitewavemark2 Mon 08-Jul-19 10:33:16

It doesn’t work anyway. Read your history folks and then tell me what a good system it was.

MaizieD Mon 08-Jul-19 10:31:55

I never knew that paying your due taxes was called noblesse oblige that's a new one!

No, paying your taxes isn't, Callistomen, but relying on rich people to 'relieve' the poor by charitable acts certainly is.

Having been brought up in an era when it was understood that the state should care for all its citizens the idea of relying on the charity of the rich for such care seems to me to be curiously outdated.

Pantglas1 Mon 08-Jul-19 10:18:43

Wow I’m impressed Grany....even Jeremy Corbyn doesn’t like ‘em all! Perhaps you should be the leader of the Labour Party?
Wish my friends who are tories had your total faith in all their own policies, they might not be dithering as much as they are at the moment.

Grany Mon 08-Jul-19 09:29:05

I like all the hundred or so new polices that socialist Labour would bring in, transformative and would be beneficial to the many. If that makes me tunnel vision so be it.

And I have to defend Labour against lies smears propaganda campaign from MSM

I look at polices like these and compared to the Tories what Tories haven't done, or what they have done since 2010 I would have to say, Who would vote Tory?

I think people who voted Tory through the years have been fooled.

The neoliberalism has failed and getting worse for all to see but the very rich have benefited that's all.

Pantglas1 Mon 08-Jul-19 09:24:32

Agreed Lemongrove - I’ve met so many blinkered people over the years who damn anything and everything from t’other side!

Of course it applies with religion as well and I’m appalled at the lack of respect that people show to someone who believes something different - what ever happened to reasoned debate and agreeing to disagree? More open mindedness wouldn’t go amiss...

lemongrove Mon 08-Jul-19 08:32:52

Eloethan yes, that was one example I gave and I could trawl through adopted polices going back a long way ( if I could be bothered, just for the purpose of point scoring.)
The plain truth is, that both main parties, have, over the years brought in some excellent policies....and have also ( both of them) brought in some that are huge mistakes.
Grany Having such tunnel vision about a political party makes a person unable to see the flaws, makes them deny any mistakes or wrongdoing, and they become almost like a cult member.This has to be resisted at all costs.?
It makes a person say things such as ‘who would vote Tory?’
Common sense tells you that millions do, which is why we often have Tory governments in power.
I wouldn’t say ‘who would vote Labour?’ Or even think it.It
Shows complete narrowness of thought.
Ideally, I would like a good mix of MP’s from all parties to form a new central party ( but not just a group of angry Remainers as in Change UK.)

lemongrove Mon 08-Jul-19 08:12:59

grin

Whitewavemark2 Mon 08-Jul-19 07:17:09

eleothan I am always in awe of your moderate, sensible intelligence. Long may you reign?

Grany Mon 08-Jul-19 07:01:58

Very well said Eloethan I agree with every word you said, who wouldn't?

Who would vote Tory?

Eloethan Sun 07-Jul-19 23:51:05

I stand by my opinion (and believe it can be borne out by examining what various governments have done when in office) that Labour governments have brought in many progressive policies, such as State Pension, NHS, Minimum Wage, Equality legislation, etc, etc, whereas Conservative MPs have almost always opposed these and other policies designed to improve the lives of the average person.

lemongrove You say my analysis is incorrect, that Conservative government have also introduced measures to help the average person. You cite just one example - our current Conservative government's increase to the tax threshold.

In April 2019, the Guardian reported:

"A surprise £3bn income tax giveaway worth £860 a year to high earners was the centrepiece of Philip Hammond’s third budget, but tax experts said it would leave low earners with little or no gains.

"The rises in personal allowances translate into significant tax cuts further up the income scale. For someone on £12,500, the increase is worth £130, but for those on £50,000 salaries it is worth £860 a year, although this is reduced to £520 once national insurance is taken into account.

................... "Victoria Todd, of the Low Incomes Tax Reform Group (LITRG), said: “Personal allowance increases are often welcomed as helping those on low incomes. However, such increases do not benefit those on the lowest incomes at all, or benefit them by a lower amount than those with higher incomes.

“Those earning under the current personal allowance of £11,850 will see no gain from this change. Those earning above £11,850 may benefit but it depends on whether they receive tax credits or other means-tested benefits such as universal credit.”

And now Boris Johnson is making tax cuts a central part of his campaign to be PM.

Guardian June 2019

"Boris Johnson has promised to cut taxes for around 3 million higher earners by raising the 40p threshold from £50,000 to £80,000 if he becomes prime minister, saying

“The move would cost around £9.6bn a year, which would be paid for partly from savings in Brexit no-deal preparations, he said." (I think many people would question that blithe assumption - in the same way that they should have questioned the notion of a quick and easy resolution of our withdrawal from the EU)

Jeremy Hunt is also jumping on the tax cuts bandwagon, with his proposals being described by the Institute of Fiscal Studies as likely to cost in the region of £37-65bn.

Virtually all our public services are on their knees - police force (a crisis is manpower, courts system (barristers threatening to strike), probation system (part privatisation described as a disaster and cancelled) , older care system (residential homes closing for lack of funding) , NHS (chronic lack of trained medical and nursing staff and failure to retain) schools (250 either having gone part-time or planning to go part-time because of funding crisis
parents protesting that SEN children are being left completely unsupported) ................... and the list goes on.

At such a time, our two Conservative PM candidates propose to significantly cut taxes and thus the ability of the government to try to address the major crisis in our crumbling public services - upon which the vast majority of this country's population rely.

Callistemon Sun 07-Jul-19 23:32:11

Gosh!

I probably find something I disagree with in most pieces of opinionated journalism unless it is something factual.

Lessismore Sun 07-Jul-19 23:16:32

I failed to find anything I disagreed with.

Callistemon Sun 07-Jul-19 23:08:45

such as what?

Such as whenever reading a piece of journalism in any publication.

Lessismore Sun 07-Jul-19 23:07:49

such as?

Callistemon Sun 07-Jul-19 23:02:43

I just thought it was an interesting read.
It is Lessismore but it's good to read, digest and then form conclusions based on more than the information contained in a piece of journalism.

Callistemon Sun 07-Jul-19 22:59:49

Someone always makes other places than Gransnet more attractive. Thank you for the reminder Day 6.

I thought that other forums were supposedly far feistier than GN? Or so other posters have led me to believe.

lemongrove Sun 07-Jul-19 21:31:11

Absolutely Pantglas1 ??

Lessismore Sun 07-Jul-19 21:28:45

I just thought it was an interesting read.

Pantglas1 Sun 07-Jul-19 21:28:02

The words ‘Noblesse oblige’ used as an insult says much about the speaker. I prefer the words ‘Giving something back’ and so would most folks with no political axe to grind recognising generosity from wherever it comes.

lemongrove Sun 07-Jul-19 21:16:22

Gary Younge mildly left of centre ! ?

GrannyGravy13 Sun 07-Jul-19 21:15:07

Callistemon agree with your post.

As a family business, private limited company we pay our taxes.

We as a family participate/contribute to local charities. Noblesse oblige??

lemongrove Sun 07-Jul-19 21:14:51

Your posts GGM3 are a ghastly reminder to most I should think.

Lessismore Sun 07-Jul-19 21:13:23

If I am far right love

how patronising

GracesGranMK3 Sun 07-Jul-19 20:50:21

Someone always makes other places than Gransnet more attractive. Thank you for the reminder Day 6.

Day6 Sun 07-Jul-19 18:59:51

The mildly left of centre Guardian champions fairness and equality

Oh where is the 'extreme mirth' emoji when we need one..grin

Hilarious!