Is this the face of fascism?

Maizie, thank you for 16:35:33. It should be prescribed on the NHS.

(It has now gone around the world with one Aussie included to assure me about the axe-grinding )

I wonder what Obama would have told us to do?

Any ideas anybody?

Whatever makes you think those of us who see Trump as dangerous would have been happy to have a Obama telling us what to do. Polarised views ?

Sterling hitting the skids

Power matters. So right

There's an amusing twitter thread on trade negotiations here:

twitter.com/DmitryOpines/status/1151109788228628480

The man who started it is a former trade negotiator and now trains people in trade negotiation. He's Australian, so has no axe to grind about Brexit.

You would have us believe that leaving the EU means we are in thrall to Trump, which is more ridiculous Remainer scaremongering.

Trump = the USA, it is shorthand for 'the USA'. So, 'in thrall' to the USA

The USA wants to trade with us on far more advantageous terms than they do at present. They have already, months ago, set out their objectives for any deal they negotiate with the UK. It required all sorts of lowered standards. I posted it here on Gnet at the time but you Leavers don't seem to be able to take in factual information, even if it's straight from the horse's mouth. If we accepte lowered standards it will adversely affect our trade with EU member states because they will be suspicious of the standards of the goods they do take from us. And how many businesses will want, or be able, to produce their goods to two different standards: one for the EU and one for the USA?

I get my information from experienced trade negotiators. Where do you get yours from, Day6, that gives you the impression that the far smaller market that we can offer potential trade partners (as opposed to the huge EU market we're at present part of) will have any clout in the hardnosed world of trade negotiations?

This is not 'Remainer scaremongering'; this is the view of experts who know how trade negotiations work. People who are not blinded by Leavers' optimism and complete failure to face reality.

.

I can assure you that the sun will shine for the next six weeks Whitewave but that doesn't make it happen. Silly man.

The talk coming out of Brussels seems to indicate a very long negotiation period while we stay under all the rules. Interesting.

Johnson has assured us that we will be able to influence the meat market in the USA to conform to our standards.

What garbage that man speaks.

^It's interesting, because I bet you wouldn't have minded Obama determining our future.^(Tue 16-Jul-19 14:20:52)

Of course, I would. Half of my family are American. If I wanted an American life I could have gone over there. I didn't because I have liked the life I have here. What a presumption on your part Day6.

You may not want Trump to influence our future and it is certainly not scientific but of the forums I am on and certainly of the one I study the great majority want exactly that. I was not and do not talk about you alone but the generality of leave voters.

We will trade with the USA but on their terms as we will not be coming from the position of strength the EU, currently, the second-largest economy has. That doesn't change whoever is there.

I think in fact you are muddling yourself.

We have agreed on contracts which include infrastructure projects and other contracts, together with the pension liability of your friend Farage etc. This amounts to an agreed figure if £39bn. We could of course refuse to pay, but god knows what message that would send to the rest of 5h3 world.

We can’t be trusted to hour our contracts!!

Love the emphasis on the the £39bn????

How much do we pay day6?

So once we’ve agreed that the figure we pay is £13bn we can then agree that as individuals we will pay a huge amount more if we don’t get a deal which includes a CU and SM.

Clearly escaped your notice,*Day6, that we already trade with the countries you cite*

It clearly escaped your reading skills MaisieD that I mentioned it. The gist of my posts, which you conveniently overlook, to point score, is that we do not have to like leaders in order to do business with firms/people in their counties.

You would have us believe that leaving the EU means we are in thrall to Trump, which is more ridiculous Remainer scaremongering.

It's a great big world you know and we deal with much of it now. In future we will do it without the strait-jacket of EU impositions, (costing us £39,000,000,000 a year) which has to be very good news. In the not too distant future, Trump will be yesterday's news and a new person will be in the White House. The President does not personally oversee business negotiations and trade with other countries. Trump doesn't, Obama didn't. The next one won't, but the truth remains, most countries in the world will not fall out with the USA. Why should we?

Economic migrants are not the same as refugees

I know.

Every country should have an immigration policy. I don't live in cloud cuckoo land.

Clearly escaped your notice,*Day6*, that we already trade with the countries you cite. On good terms. Terms that we will not get outside the EU. What is that you don't understand about trade negotiations? The weakest party has to make the largest concessions. The UK will be the weakest party in negotiations with the US and China. Reality will bite..

the half that doesn't want Trump determining our future

But you are doing it now, GGM3.

It's interesting, because I bet you wouldn't have minded Obama determining our future.

I don't want ANY American president determining our future.

Why should they. We trade with the USA now, and our deals are NOT determined by Trump. In the future we will trade around the world with a number of countries.

It is very convenient for Remainers to use the odious Trump as a deterrent. He will remain just as odious when we leave the EU, but so what?

Macron is his pal, Merkel embraced him. They did so because diplomacy is the nature of the international game. We don't want to fall out with the USA, nor does the EU.

We will trade with the USA whoever is resident in the Whitehouse. We trade with China and many regimes where the head of state doesn't have a UK fan club.

And it is currently to the right.

In what way is what I am describing "left-wing" Day6? It is certainly the path of the extremist but I would say it is the path of the extremist either to the left or the right.

And what about the half of the country who didn't vote leave Day6, the half that doesn't want Trump determining our future or the half that sees us as in a better position a part of the second-biggest economy rather than the fifth or sixth?

All you want is what you want. There is no attempt to compromise whatsoever.

There is always a minority who see everything as them and us, sadly, and they march out the same old tropes to try and ratify their view

Yes, just as I have mentioned above, but I wouldn't call left wingers 'a minority' GracesGranMK3

You are describing a common left wing approach.

I don't really understand what is happening when our country is willfully rejecting an alliance of more moderate regimes in favour of cosying up to this bully

What ridiculous biased rhetoric and scaremongering.

This approach is on the rise.

If we reject the EU, it means we become Trump's best friends. That is laughable.

When we reject the EU we will be trading GLOBALLY with countries around the world, and not making pacts with their leaders.

And if 'cosying up' to Trump is a crime, we need to be offended by Macron's cordial occasion in France.

Mistaking diplomacy (which is the course taken by those in their international dealings with others, and always has been) for being 'sucked into the USA' is a Remainer ploy.

It is becoming tiring and very predictable. We need to call out the language of Remainers and the left wing.

If you disagree with them politically you automatically become a 'fascist'.

GGMk3 great post, thank you. I feel overlooked, disregarded and dismissed as a 'loser' or as unpatriotic because I firmly support remaining in the EU.

WWM2 Excellent post. Thank you.

There's a good (and amusing) article in the Guardian yesterday by Richard Wolfe about Trump's immigrant family.

There is always a minority who see everything as them and us, sadly, and they march out the same old tropes to try and ratify their view. I believe the response to the Brexit vote, where there were only 2% over half in favour and yet politicians and people built an argument that told us all that "the people" we're now defined as that 52% has escalated those with this view to the front, to a position where some contemptuous views are now more acceptable than they have been since the 1930s.

We have seen people called unpatriotic, because leavers now see themselves as the definers of patriotism. We have seen MPs called traitors because leavers now see themselves as those who define what we must be loyal to.

I have just watched a young American women, attacked by Trump to aid his attempt to get a second term, tell all the children of that country that the country is theirs; the country belongs to all of them. Perhaps there is someone in this country who can stand up and say that the 52% are not "the people", the people are all of us no matter our colour, creed, how long our families have been here or how we voted in the referendum.