We must have our say

I agree with the view expressed by Framilode

A friend of ours who lives in France voted remain but said if he were living in the UK he'd have voted leave.

Yes another referendum or GE would hopefully sort it out. Can’t see how anyone would object to that apart from their view not prevailing.

Just look at the two contenders for the Libdem leadership -Jo Swinson and Ed Davey are both so brilliant compared with the dreadful apologies for leaders of the Tory and Labour parties.

Framilode Yes, I think it is the only way to heal the country.

I wonder how people would feel if we had a GE and neither of the main parties won. I suspect there is quite a big swing to Libdems but only time will tell.

Nonnie If there were to be another referendum and leave won it I would certainly accept the result. We all, leavers and remainers, have so much more information now about what leaving the EU will entail and about the problems involved.

Be careful what you wish for Day6 a GE might very well result in a LidDem/Green alliance.

I know I've said it before but what alternative is there to a referendum on whatever deal can be obtained? I think we all agree the country is divided and it will continue to be if we are all worse off as a result of leaving. If we all get a chance to vote on any deal and leave still wins I think remainers would accept it as they would know it was a fair vote. At the moment there are a lot of people who didn't realise they would be so much worse off and have changed their minds. There are also a lot of people who think the referendum should stand. I think there is only one way to sort it out as both sides think they would win.

Come on Urmstongran. We lived in Spain for 15 years and still paid tax in the UK as well as Spain. We also paid into the system all our working lives and one of the benefits of the EU was freedom of movement. Yes, the drop in the value of the pound affected our income but that is something you have to factor in if you live abroad

Free medicines etc was under the reciprocal health agreement and applies equally to the Spanish living here. The Spanish government have said they will honour that, deal or no deal. Most people paid towards prescription medicines, only those on the lowest get it free.

I was in Spain at the time of the referendum and voted to remain. I would have done the same if I lived here.

I have funded plenty of people's lifestyles during my working life with the taxes we as a couple have paid.

The same Remainers who bleat the referendum result was unfair, that is.

None of these actions add up and yet some people expect us to vote in another referendum to no doubt be conned again with more promises, deadlines and failures, that are of course, if leave were to win, again be the fault of us mere mortals for not voting correctly and never the fault of MP's!

Almost certainly if remain had won, the margin would have been just fine, any discrepancies pushed to one side, and any objections firmly disregarded with, 'we won, accept it and get over it'!! But the other way round??!!!!

Exactly Jabberwok

We know it and Remainers know it. We can see a Remain Parliament (which agreed to trigger Art 50, who stood by their party's manifestos, which stated the referendum result would be honoured) trying to cancel Brexit at every turn.

I thank those fair Remainers who accept the result and agree we need to get on with it.

As you stated Jabberwok, those same Remainers wouldn't want Leavers to throw spanners into the works at every turn.

Remain MPs will be named and shamed come the next GE and if there's any justice in the world, there will not be a happy outcome for Tory rebels OR the traitorous Labour Remain Party.

Why should taxpayers here prop up ex pats abroad? Loads of Brits in Spain are complaining about the exchange rate, the drop in their pension euros, free medicines for their diabetic needs etc. The way I see it they made their choice! They want us over here to remain in the E.U. to fund their lifestyles abroad. Sorry, but no. Talk about cherry picking!

I've only skim read this but can't seen any mention of the figures from the OBR, which is independent. I imagine that is what the OP meant.

The £ was at 1.62 against the $ in June 2016, a couple of days ago it was at 1.24 and the MSM claimed it was a direct result of the Brexit situation. There is a lot of suggesting that a no deal Brexit would cause a further drop of 10%.

If anyone is unaware that we will all be worse off they must have some other reason for wanting to leave.

Jabberwok Do you really think that people will be conned again if there is another referendum? After all, we've learned enough about BJ's machinations and lies not to trust him completely. Straight bananas, condoms, hairnets for fishermen et etc and now the latest - kippers. He either didn't know that the Isle of Man isn't in the EU and that the laws complained about were UK and not EU (in which case he should better inform himself) or he was lying and just making those comments for effect, knowing that they would go down well with his admirers.

Day6 I assume that because people you know living in France don't know how Brexit will affect them you believe that they are in favour of Brexit.

Most of us who live in France already know that it will already affect our finances because since the referendum sterling has dropped against the euro. For example, my husband's state pension received in the year to 31 December 2015 was 8930 euros. The following year 8084 euros, the year after 7774 euros and a little climb back for the last year to December 2018 it was 7902 euros. So a drop of 1000 euros over 4 years. And, of course, there were increases, albeit small, in the state pension.

We also know that when the UK leaves the EU our state pensions will be frozen - no more increases. At the moment there is a reciprocal health arrangement whereby the UK contributes to our health care. And why not since we have paid into it for all our working lives.

So there's always the possibility that there will be tens of thousands of UK citizens, currently living in the EU, who will be flooding back because of free healthcare. They will be clogging up the system, unlike the immigrants who are generally young and healthy and don't need healthcare very often.

What I can't understand is why Parliament allowed DC to hold the referendum under the conditions that he suggested, bearing in mind that MPs were aware months in advance what was being proposed?

As we've been through this several times in the last few years, Jabberwock and you still don't 'understand', then I doubt if you ever will.

None of these actions add up and yet some people expect us to vote in another referendum to no doubt be conned again with more promises, deadlines and failures

Well, I don't recall any deadlines and failures being part of the Brexit campaigns but there was certainly a great deal of conning going on. Which we expect from any campaign out to win votes. What we don't expect is for campaigners to act illegally.

Of course, the long and short of it is that a great many Remainers knew that the 'promises' were empty ones. So we're not surprised or puzzled at all.

Before the referendum NF declared that if the result was less than 60% in favour of Remain he wouldn't accept it. As we know the result was 52% in favour of Leave. So he changed his mind. He is now complaining that the new EU president only won 52% of the vote.

52:48 ring any bells?

so who can say how many of those who voted leave only did so because they were influenced by those that included illegalities?

That is precisely the point, Smileless. We have absolutely no way of knowing that. That is what makes the result 'unsafe'.

Had the result been mandatory on the government (i.e they were legally obliged to honour it) the referendum should have been declared void and then rerun with the offenders either forbidden to campaign again or very closely monitored for further infringements of Electoral law.

The whole purpose of Electoral law is to provide a level playing field for everyone concerned in campaigning. To ensure that no party wins because they were able to spend more money than the other parties. To ensure that funding came from UK nationals, not from foreign sources (and there is still a huge question mark over the source of some of the money spent in a Leave campaign).

Once the result of a vote is allowed to stand despite known serious breaches of Electoral law then democracy is on a downward slope to oblivion as all parties to a campaign for votes will take it that they can do whatever they please, however illegal it might be.

What I can't understand is why Parliament allowed DC to hold the referendum under the conditions that he suggested, bearing in mind that MPs were aware months in advance what was being proposed? Why on earth didn't they object to first past the post, a binding decision? It was voted through with barely a murmur. Why, after the event that they clearly had an issue with, did these same MP's sign up for article 50 when they profoundly disagreed with it? Why go to the country on the back of delivering Brexit when in fact the aim was to destroy it?! None of these actions add up and yet some people expect us to vote in another referendum to no doubt be conned again with more promises, deadlines and failures, that are of course, if leave were to win, again be the fault of us mere mortals for not voting correctly and never the fault of MP's! Almost certainly if remain had won, the margin would have been just fine, any discrepancies pushed to one side, and any objections firmly disregarded with, 'we won, accept it and get over it'!! But the other way round??!!!!

"proven illegalities of some of the Leave campaigns"; some not all so who can say how many of those who voted leave only did so because they were influenced by those that included illegalities?

Would so much have been said about these illegalities if the result had been remain? Would they even have been investigated? I have my doubts and can't help but think that for some remainers the 'fairness' of the campaign isn't the real issue, it's the fact that the majority who voted, voted to leave.

I am a remainer, but I agree with what you’re saying about the death of democracy, we’ve voted to leave, and leave we must

I take it then, Sarah65, and other posters who say that, despite voting Remain, they think it was a democratic vote and we should get on with implementing it, that you are unaware the the legitimacy of the referendum result has been called into question because of the proven illegalities of some of the Leave campaigns?

Because if you are aware and still want the result to be implemented then democracy in the UK died in June 2016. Its kingpin, free and fair elections no longer exists.

You may get your wish for a say WW as, following the shenanigans in the HoC today, one way and another there may well be a general election yet!

Remainers in Parliament, those duplicitous MP’s who both triggered A50 and then (Labour & Tory) put it into their manifestos Brexit was happening, hate Boris and want to scupper No Deal (or better still, any deal!).

Hold onto your hats folks - this is going to be a bumpy ride!

I fail to see how another vote is undemocratic, given the parlous state of our divided country. It’s like saying another general election is undemocratic( our whole political system isn’t very democratic anyway, but that’s another issue).

Democracy pretty dead at the moment.

The European elections was a good reflection of how the country feels....we're still split 50/50.

Another remainer here who doesn't agree that we should have another referendum. And I think I'm pretty fair-minded.