A very English Brexit

Justme67 When you said: the country was asked to vote which it did, and we now have to live with the result whatever that is when it arrives

Does that mean we could never change our minds, and have another vote?

After all, in the 1970s, the Government White Paper, explained specifically about closer social, economic and political union.

We democratically voted for that - why does the 2016 vote matter any more or less I wonder.

Thank you Notagranyet2

Sometimes it takes someone who has not lived for their whole life here to point out how the UK has done very well as an influential member of the European Union and how crazy it would be for us to throw all that we have away.

Minniemoo - argh - I agree and disagree at the same time!

It's absurd to suggest that the EU has made us rich. In fact you could say that we have helped make the EU rich.

The EU has made us rich, simply by our engagement with other people from different cultures, and we have added vale to our European community in the same way.

What a shame we seem to be bent on pulling up the drawbridge, and applying a monetary cost to things we appear to value.

The majority of people in the UK in the early 1970s were not rich, but neither were they in as much poverty as might appear. The average wage at that time was only around £20 to £22 a week - but the explosion of consumerism and "I want it now" on cheap credit in the 1980s and 90s seems to have had adverse - perhaps unintended - social consequences too.

Very well put, Notagranyet2.

Notagranyet2 - Brilliantly well said - I could not agree with you more.

Well said!

Libra10 Turkey can never join the EU while they occupy half of Cyprus. The become a member it has to be 100% in a vote to allow membership but Greece will never give the yes.

I don't know where you were living in the 70s, notagrannyyet. However I was a teen in the 70s and had a wonderful life. You can't possibly say that everyone looked poorer. You must have been in a poor area.

I was very fortunate to have reasonably well off parents (yep, people had money in the 70s) and life was good despite all the strikes that were going on.
Fabulous holidays abroad, beautiful clothes which I can assure you were available pre EU.

Joining the EU did not suddenly make us clean and rich.

It's the passage of time. You'd find many countries in the EU in the 70s who really were rather impoverished. I lived in Spain in the late 70s. With a family who had nothing. Now that was poverty. It's absurd to suggest that the EU has made us rich. In fact you could say that we have helped make the EU rich.

All the goods that you mention will not suddenly be unavailable to us either. That's just wrong.

Some people are getting a bit carried away with their ideas of what might happen

My only worry with the EU are the continuing murmuring about a,” European Army”, which I am definitely not in favour of.

I try not to get involved in political discussions (yes, I know that is exactly what I am doing) I know only what I read about Brexit; what happens there will happen, the country was asked to vote which it did, and we now have to live with the result whatever that is when it arrives. However what has been worrying me over the past months is the sheer volume of HATE which has crept into things, will we ever be able to eradicate this? At the moment the hate brigade seems to be holding it's breath (so I feel), for an onslaught on whatever the outcome of Brexit is. I do not envy those whose job it will be to sort out whatever comes after 31st October.

Don't they what?

By the way, very well said on your post.

Notagranyet, It sounds as though you're doing pretty well as a pureblood claimant (see another thread for an explanation).

Exactly, Misha. It's absolute nonsense.

If you follow the logic about other areas of the UK voting on Scottish independence, why didn't the 27 other EU countries vote in our referendum?

We can veto every proposal put forward by the European Parliament and we elect our own EU MPs. We are NOT ruled by the EU and never have been. This is another piece of disinformation put out by the Brexiteers.

I’m a New Zealander who came to this country in the 70’s and I’m disappointed at what I have been hearing and seeing over these past 3 years. Everyone needs theirs heads banged together. And before anyone tells me to go home, my DNA analysis says I am 93% english - much higher than the average in this country.
I came to the UK having spent 18 months living in the apartheid regime of South Africa. Britain was like a breath of fresh air and a guiding light in fairness, sensibility, intelligence, knowledge, morality etc - and I know there as those who would say that is rubbish - it’s not compared to what many oppressed countries have to deal with. Britain was seen as a light in the world and still is because of those qualities but the Brexit business has saddened many to realise Britain too, can succumb to Populist madness. Yet at the same time, back in the 70’s, it seemed like a poorer place with poorer housing, people looked as if they’d bought all their clothes from second-hand shops and personal wealth was not visible. I recall it being quite a depressing place. The only positive sides were no obesity as we know it today and a good education was more valuable than being a celebrity or showing off your wealth.
Since being part of the EU, most people have had a better standard of living. You can move freely to many places people in other countries can only dream about visiting, you have a fantastic array of cheap foodstuffs in your stores, yes, cheap compared to some places outside the EU, you have an amazing choice of cars, electrical goods, and don’t even mention the range of fashion goods. And that will all change.
I heard someone say that the British are like spoilt kids who are now throwing toys out of the pram because we think someone else is getting more than they are. And things would be better is we can take back control... what does that mean? We have our own sovereignty, our own parliament and we agree with most EU laws and have instigated many of them..?? And when we talk about faceless bureaucrats, that’s our own elected MEP’s we voted for!
We need alliances in many shapes and forms but some are now being dismantled because of the Brexit madness to the detriment of people in this country.
My NZ father and grandfathers fought in the World Wars and they would believe, like many of their generation who fought, that being part of the EU is beneficial to everyone living in this region to avoid such conflict again. Unity is strength.
Sometimes we need to get out of our comfort zone to appreciate what we have.
To anyone who wants to batten down the hatches and put up the barricades, that’s a very Populist reaction and doesn’t do anyone any good. For those who pander for the good ol days, when we’re those? Fantasy days of your childhood, like the 70’s when you rightly had no cares in the world? Of course you wouldn’t, you were a child, but your parents would have been well aware of the economic problems around at that time.
As I said, I’m sadden by it all and feel sick at the thought of this great country risking everything it has, for what - exactly ...

Do you want to be rid of the Royal family? What do you want to replace it with?

Strictly speaking if the UK, or parts of it, leave the EU citizens of the leaving countries can be classed as "Third country citizens", which gives countries they want to visit de the right to decide whether they will need visas to do so, or not.

As far as I know, nothing has yet been said about the EU parliament decided that holders of British passports will need a visa to enter any EU country. Right now, it sounds as if it will be up to the individual country to decide this, but I may be wrong, or this may change.

It would after all be easier if all EU countries had the same ruling about the need for visas, or simply decided that a valid British passport did not require a visa.

Apart from that, if Scotland leaves the UK, some kind of border and border control between Scotland and England will presumably become necessary - but that will be for the Scottish and English parliaments to sort out.

If Scotland leaves the UK and Northern Ireland does not, presumably border controls will be established at the ferry harbours and airports between these two countries, as well.

Nobody in the EU seems seriously to consider that Scotland might become a republic and wish to remain in the EU, so whether Scotland could automatically remain if an independent country would be a matter for the Writers of the Signet and the EU's lawyers to try to come to an agreement about. It might well be that the Republic of Scotland would have to seek to join the EU.

Sorry, I don't think we will see a re-emergence of a Scottish Monarchy, as it is extremely doubtful whether Bonnie Prince Charlie had any legitimate heirs.

Obviously, Scotland could elect a king or queen, but is that really likely to happen in this day and age? Anyone fancy the Duke of York or the duke of Hamilton? Most supporters of an Independent Scotland are likely to be those who either are staunch Scottish Nationalists or Labour - people in other words who are highly unlikely to be royalist in their views.

growstuff. Don't they ?Well you could have fooled me.

I agree there’s no need for GN to be politics (or religion) free but surely reasoning adults ought to be able to read and respect another’s point of view without resorting to nastiness.

I think that’s why folks withdraw - they know they’re be attacked for their beliefs. Wrong on every level.

I don't think it should be politics free. I try to keep away from the political threads as it's all a bit pointless really but I just can't help myself.

It's easy enough to steer clear from these threads if you want to.

I'm sorry that at least one member left because she thinks Gransnet should be politics free.

Politics is about the way the whole population is organised, our individual and collective duties and responsibilities to ourselves and our fellows. If such issues should not be important to us what the heck is more important?

Whatever you're political views are we should be willing to discuss and even argue about politics; after all it is about lives.

Paddyann, with regard to Scottish Independence, any idea why we don't all get to vote? After all, you leaving would have an impact on England/Wales/NI. You've said so yourself.

So I did wonder why we didn't all get to vote on it. I have a strong suspicion that if we all voted you'd get your wish.

Just interests me as to why it's just Scots.

GillT57, I should have been clearer re the Deselection of MPs both Conservative and Labour. I mean the remainers and leavers who are MPs who ignored the votes of their constituents. I do understand that parliamentary democracy allows for MPs to decide how to vote regardless of their constituents but in the case of Conservative members they stood on a manifesto that declared that they supported Brexit and then they reneged. I am sure you are aware that Corbyn has always wanted to leave the EU until political expediency changed his mind.