Democracy - help me out here!

We hear and see what we want to see and unless we have open minds what we think we have seen or heard may be filtered through our prejudices POGS. I think your bias is plainly visible. The Labour party was shifted violently to the right by Blair and associates. I see no reason why it shouldn't be brought back to its true values.

Grandad

No not 'World' destruction, just the dedtruction of the Labour Party ' traitors', or Blairites as they are so known.

trisher
POGS

Would you like to supply an example or link?
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I have my eyes open and I hear clearly.

Do you not watch political programmes?

The way that some on this forum speak of Momentum being within the Labour movement, any stranger to British politics reading threads such as this could be forgiven for believing they were two-headed monsters bent on world destruction.

However, Momentum was originally born out of the Unite Union Trade Group Branch Structure who formed sub-community branches in areas surrounding large industrial and commercial sites. The Branches within the Unite Union are allowed to be somewhat autonomous in their activities and retain funds within all branches for that purpose.

The Comunity branches were formed in the early years of the Millenium to enhance communication with residents in communities surrounding the above sites and were (and still are in many cases) run by local workplace union reps and branch lay organisers.

In the above, as those community branches developed they began to link up to campaign for better conditions for residents in areas that surround large industrial or commercial sites, and In that was the ambition to create and gain a "Momentum" that comes of joint action.

Eventually, the branches of other trades unions joined the lay Unite Union organisers which brought more weight and finances to those community endeavours. With Jon Lansman in connection with Jeremy Corbyn and others in the Labour Party/movement gaining interest in the growing ambitions of those lay community organisers they then jointly formed Momentum out of those active within those branches.

So, many activists within Momentum are just working persons from often deprived areas who through those community branches and Momentum have been given a political voice in the Labour Movement. Through that those persons have become organised and then elected to offices within District and Consistency Labour Parties.

I fail to see anything subversive in the above, for how can there be when it is only working people organising, campaigning and then being granted a political voice.

GracesGranMk3 Sorry if you don't like me asking questions but when someone makes sweeping statements I really think they should clarify them. Having experienced the lobby system for instance I would like every MP to make clear to their constituents any meetings they have with influential bodies and lobbyists. They might also have to declare where they go for lunch during party conferences. The idea that there is no such thing as a free lunch doesn't seem to apply to them and the lobbyists know this.
POGS The media has NOT stopped going on about Momentum. What has happened however Momentum is now so accepted as being part of Labour there are regular Momentum activists interviewed to speak on behalf of the Momentum/Labour Party.
Would you like to supply an example or link?

Do you really have to cross-question people trisher? You are not asking about any sort of clarification but have gone into interrogation mode.

I disagree that change necessitates deciding what is "wrong". You only do that when something ceases to be "right". As Trisher said, we still have one of the best forms of democracy in the world. Even with all the problems at the moment, it shows the truth about how closely the division is.

To my mind, what is worth looking at is progress. That is my reason for being in favour of PR. I would suggest that properly explained (Citizen's Assemblies?), all but a few would see this as making their vote count in a more democratic way than it does at the moment.

My second suggestion, for a now more educated country, would be the use of citizens assemblies to enable a clearer, unbiased understanding.

My third would be an English parliament. England is the only country in the "Kingdom" that does not have it's own. We could then move from the less democratic House of Lords to an elected (more democratic) Second Chamber which works as the independent revising chamber for each and every county's Parliament or Assembly and as the UK Parliament. This should raise the standard (and pay) of those representing the UK and give England more of a sense of autonomy, letting us see what "Englishness" means today.

trisher Mon 26-Aug-19 11:13:51
Isn't it time you let Momentum go POGS? even the MMedia have stopped going on about it.
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You would like that trisher wouldn't you.

The media has NOT stopped going on about Momentum. What has happened however Momentum is now so accepted as being part of Labour there are regular Momentum activists interviewed to speak on behalf of the Momentum/Labour Party.

If another General Election is forth coming then we will see even more calls for ' deselection' of MP's, more Momentum candidates named as candidates. Of course it will all be the fault of the nasty right wing press who dare to mention Momentum.

As for ' isn' t it time you let go' I suppose I could mention Brexit/ERG etc. etc. but I respect you have your opinion and prefer to debate rather than shut down another posters opinions. Each to his/her own.

So what are your ideas sandelf? any process of change begins with looking at what is wrong then finding solutions.

? sandelf

We have evolved a system over centuries, through civil wars and much internal strife, that has many faults. But it is still one of the best in the world - particularly for a population approaching 70 million. Suggestions for real improvements helpful - pointing out just where the system lets one or other down - not really useful.

Isn't it time you let Momentum go POGS? even the MMedia have stopped going on about it.

Grandad

POGS,
"then we shall just have to agree to disagree as I believe the "facts" speak for themselves in the Parliamentary setup.
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I am happy to accept my ' facts' so I guess that is where we have landed.

Grandad

'Therefore the grassroots activists within the Labour movement have now a structure, leader and set of policies that they overwhelmingly support'
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It certainly does have a structure and that is Momentum.

There have been many threads where the argument surrounds the Jeremy for Leader/Momentum/Labour Party commonly viewed as the party within a party.

Corbyn naturally surrounds himself with those whom he knows put him before all else., that may change now they are fully ensconsed at the top of the Labour Party. I always thought Corbyn was the ' likeable' face but McDonnell will be the chosen one in time.

It always amuses me when people claim to have left wing views but then slag off the Labour party because they listen to ordinary people and actually discuss issues. Presumably they would much rather have policy dictated by a few individuals.
As far as lobbying goes I was involved a few years ago with a major UK charity and was able to see lobbying for myself at close quarters. It is unbelievable what is provided for MPs particularly during party conferences, when organisations, professional lobbyists, Old Uncle Tom Cobbley and all gather to try and get their particular project adopted and legislated on.

Well, Labour activists can enjoy navel gazing and discussing ideology and procedures as much as they like. Meanwhile, the electorate will be alienated and the Conservatives will get on with destroying the country.

growstuff
"The Labour Party/Movement are where they are and will remain in that stance whether the electorate accepts that or not into the future"

This is a good thing Labour are a people's movement for the people, making a difference.

'Those grassroots party activists and affiliate activists will not once again be totally ignored while they fund the Parliamentary Party as has been the case in the past'.

So it's up to the electorate to make their decision who they will vote for based on the polices of each party. Making a fairer society for the many not the few. I know who I will be voting for. Grass roots Socialist Labour back to its roots.

"The Labour Party/Movement are where they are and will remain in that stance whether the electorate accepts that or not into the future"

As far as I'm concerned, that just about sums up Labour's attitude, as I see it, and is why you won't be getting my vote. As it happens, my vote doesn't matter because I live in a constituency with a massive Conservative majority. However, there are many other people like me, left of centre and wanting a fairer society, who won't vote Labour while you carry on being so intransigient. It's absolutely tragic because we have a diabolical government, who will carry on by default because Labour won't shift. There are real people who will suffer.

growstuff, in regard to your post @22:04 today, I believe you have to look back to the Blair era to appreciate the position the Labour Party/movement has taken up at the present time.

In the above, Blair and his cohorts took the funds of the Labour Party grassroots membership and the affiliated membership and in that paid little or no notice of their thoughts, motions and resolution to central office or the delegate conference.

Blair and Brown set up a close ring within the national executive committee (NEC) that had total allegiance to their views to the exclusion of all else. Blair never once attended a trade union conference and often the NEC did not even respond to Constituency party letters etc. Not one section of the Tory Anti-trade union legislation was revoked and that especially was repugnant to the affiliated membership.

With the Election Jeremy Corbyn, all the above has changed and the grassroots membership and affiliated membership have once again been fully incorporated into the Party structure and decision making.

Therefore the grassroots activists within the Labour movement have now a structure, leader and set of policies that they overwhelmingly support and those policies and leadership will be put to the electorate in any forthcoming election for acceptance or rejection.

It is y view that should the present leadership and policies be rejected by the electorate, even then little or nothing will change. Those grassroots party activists and affiliate activists will not once again be totally ignored while they fund the Parliamentary Party as has been the case in the past. The Labour Party/Movement are where they are and will remain in that stance whether the electorate accepts that or not into the future, with polls meaning little or nothing.

I understand that, Grandad. However, it seems to me that the Labour Party tangles itself up in procedures and forgets that it needs to win an election.

What I mean by "ordinary voters" is people like me. I've only once ever voted Labour and the party needs votes from people like me.

The Labour Party produces a lot of hot air and gets so many things wrong because it really doesn't understand issues. Maybe some of them should get out of their committees and find out what their potential voters want.

PS. Polls vary, but the latest one is that they're 12 points behind the Conservatives, which is a scandal considering what a shower the Conservatives are. Labour should be walking it!

POGS, then we shall just have to agree to disagree as I believe the "facts" speak for themselves in the Parliamentary setup.

'POGS the Trades Unions have no need to "lobby in Parliament" as they are an integral part of the Labour Party.'
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www.unison.org.uk/about/what-we-do/about-trade-unions/

'Trade unions may also represent their members’ interests outside the workplace. For example, trade unions may lobby the government or the European Union on policies which promote their objectives.'
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en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transparency_of_Lobbying,_Non-party_Campaigning_and_Trade_Union_Administration_Act_2014

Why would you mention the Trades Union with regard to lobbying if they simply do not' lobby '.
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Look up a Trade Union and it will mention' lobbying ' including lobbying the government.

So I simply cannot agree Unions do not lobby in Parliament.

POGS Quote [Grandad
"However, in one area I feel you are incorrect. In that, you state that the trades unions "lobby in parliament" which is not the case."
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I find that an odd statement.
To clarify, are you stating as a fact Unions ' do not lobby' in Parliament?] End Quote.

POGS the Trades Unions have no need to "lobby in Parliament" as they are an integral part of the Labour Party. In that, they hold seats on the Labour Party/Movement National Executive Committee, and within the Annual Delegate Conference and therefor are involved in all policy-making and day to day running of the Labour Party and broader movement.

So, if the Trade Unions were to lobby in Parliament, who would they lobby, the Conservative Party?

I am sure they would get a great reception there.

GRANDAD

RE The NEC list you posted and Div. 111

This division are ALL from Momentum except Willsman who had the Momentum backing taken away by this time.

Yasmine Dar (Momentum/CLPD/CLGA slate)
Claudia Webbe (Momentum/CLPD/CLGA slate)
Jon Lansman (Momentum/CLPD/CLGA slate)
Rachel Garnham (Momentum/CLPD/CLGA slate)
Huda Elmi (Momentum/CLPD/CLGA slate)
Darren Williams (Momentum/CLPD/CLGA slate)
Ann Henderson (Momentum/CLPD/CLGA slate)
Nav Mishra (Momentum/CLPD/CLGA slate)
Peter Willsman (CLPD/CLGA slate)

There are some interesting personalities above especially surrounding DESELECTIONS and ANTISEMITISM in the Labour Party.

Grandad

"However, in one area I feel you are incorrect. In that, you state that the trades unions "lobby in parliament" which is not the case."
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I find that an odd statement..

To clarify, are you stating as a fact Unions ' do not lobby' in Parliament?

growstuff, in regard to your post @-14:57 today, bodies such as the Labour National Executive Committee (NEC) are for elected members and affiliate representatives of the whole Labour Movement in the country.

The National Delegate Conference along with the NEC bring forward policies that are then presented to the British electorate at times of election for acceptance or rejection as they see fit.

The electorate are the ultimate in all that is decided.