Democracy - help me out here!

It appears that politicians are allowed to change their minds. They do it all the time.

It is only the voters who are not allowed to change their minds, especially the poor folk who realise that they were fooled into voting leave by the likes of Boris Johnson and now want the chance to stop brexit.

When Gordon Brown was appointed PM B Johnson gave a speech in the Hof C saying how undemocratic it all was, no one voted for him , and demanding an immediate election.

BTW, I haven't ticked off any examples of "undemocratic backstop" on my Brexit Bingo card in the last few days. Does that mean I haven't been paying attention or has Cummings decided it was a flop?

I sometimes think of party politics in the UK as an extremely long last set in tennis. One party has the advantage for a while, but the situation can quickly be reversed. Every five years we have a general election, which has the effect of rebalancing (hopefully). There's no chance of that with a binary referendum, even one which is entirely legal within whatever parameters have been set.

California has a limited version of direct democracy on certain matters. A few years ago, the people voted to reduce taxes. Almost at the same time time, they also voted to increase spending on some public services. Errmm … A government is needed to make balanced decisions, taking into account the majority of people and an evaluation of the likely consequences.

I agree about proportional representation being a way of more people's votes actually mattering, but with the mainly two party system and FPTP, no party in power is going to vote to introduce this. To those who use election statistics to back up the referendum result, the very important and essential difference is that we can overturn an election result every 5 years or so, and we have (hopefully) an effective opposition in the HoC to hold the governing party to task and control any excessive or unpopular actions. With this illegal and unconstitutional referendum, once it happens there is no going back, as a country we will be suffering for the actions of a very small number of the electorate for a very long time. This is truly undemocratic.

One point Maizie- which makes me sympathetic to the Scottish situation- is that the French speaking part, which is a large but all the same a minority- is far too often just 'pipped at the post' - as the German Kantons (apart from the more open Basel, and at times Zurich) especially the very rural central ones, vote very conservatively, even in cohoots with the nationalist far right.

growstuff 'I wouldn't want direct democracy because it supports populism. We'd have the biased media whipping up support for all sorts of ideas.'

I actually agree. Although in the case of this particular Direct Democracy- as least they have to provide factual, unbiased information before Refs, in cooperation with parties. And they are prepared to overturn Refs shown to be, even in a 'minor' way, won fraudulently. The Brexit Ref would have been overturned months, no, years- ago- due to all the proven irregularities, lies, biased info given, and outside inteference + illegal targetting- and this even though a Ref is binding- whereas it can only be advisory, by UK's official Laws.

There is noting "fixed" about how democracy should work.

Nice bit of "whataboutifery" by the way.

You raise some good points. One thing that strikes me is that no one voted for no deal or Dominic Cummings, democracy or no. The country is in uncharted waters and it's not feeling very democratic, whatever your understanding is of the term.

Corbyn was also chosen by the Labour party members- twice! I didn't chose him, as I'm not a member, but I accept that is how leaders are chosen; it's in their rule book. However, I believe Gordon Brown, a former Prime Minister, was just chosen as a successor by Tony Blair, so no leadership election then.

We had almost 10 years of Labour government from 1997 but I didn't vote for them. However, that's how democracy works in this country. Also, Alistair Campbell was not elected but was Blair's main advisor. All political parties are the same, it's not just the Tories- sorry, the 'evil Tories', as you are obviously not a fan of them, Dido. I'm not a Tory either, by the way, but I believe they are the lesser of two 'evils'.

That's true Maizie :-(.

It's shown up many flaws in our version of parliamentary democracy.

Sorry Callistemon I wasn’t ignoring you! I agree with your comment and AC’s alleged involvement - WMD document that took us to war. I also think any PM who steps down or is sacked should lead to a GE. The only time it’s appropriate is when a PM dies in office. I know the arguments not to, as we should vote for policy not personality but I think the last appointment is an object lesson in how personality must be uppermost because BJ was pretty scant on policy!

Welcome DidoLaMents and congratulations on being brave enough to dive in with a nice contentious subject! Love your name. Democracy means different things to different people, depending upon whether they are on the 'winning' side. This debacle of a referendum is an example of how democracry should not be conducted, it was poorly explained, poorly planned, hijacked by interest groups and its main purpose as far as I can understand it, was to finally calm the restless group of Tory MPs which became the ERG, but have been bubbling under since pre-Maastricht. This referendum was not to allow the electorate to decide whether they would like to remain in or leave the EU, it was to quell internal Tory party problems, and as a plan, it blew up in Cameron's face. There are some who voted to leave I am sure, with genuine researched views and made their decision accordingly, but too many were manipulated, believed the fake promises, refuse to listen now to anyone who doesn't back up their misguided vote and are now increasingly defensive as they realise they have been had. So, democratic it isn't, and having an unelected Rasputin in No10 flies in the face of 'taking back control'.

I haven't noticed our Parliamentary democracy keeping populism in check over the last 3 years.

Perhaps jura might explain again for us how direct democracy works in Switzerland. The process is far more rigorous than our shambolic referendum.

Thanks growstuff, I like your analogy. I am of the opinion too that our parliamentary system is ill equipped to deal with social media and a more sophisticated and engaged electorate. I think we should have PR as it represents minorities more effectively; but getting a sitting government to introduce it is shades of turkeys and Christmas! At the moment FPTP is all we have got and I think your essay idea is a good one(!) for FPTP is open to abuse. For a start the referendum I think was not about Brexit but about David Cameron wanting to rid his party of a negative force within the Conservative Party. Change is afoot and I’m not sure if it’s good for remainers or leavers.

I wouldn't want direct democracy because it supports populism. We'd have the biased media whipping up support for all sorts of ideas.

'Democracy' is a very strange concept, interpreted very differently in different parts of the world. If you study the different types of democracy, even if just in the EU, their Goverment and election systems- there are vast differences.

The UK is considered a strange oddity, for instance. Still a Monarchy, with a totally unelected Chamber, where one religion only is represented, a Parliamentary Democracy where we elect MPs who are then trusted to make decisions on our behalf - and a First Past the Post system that ensures that massive numbers of votes go straight into the bin and never counted (like OH's and mine- as we lived in a Constituency that did not represent our political 'views').

Most people in the EU always looked at the UK system as a very bizarre, archaïc and very divisive system- creating 'them' and 'us' rather than cooperation - and seesaw politics, jumping from one extreme to another.

And then of course, I was born and bred, and now returned for a few years- into the totally opposite system 'Direct Democracy'.

Direct Democracy is NOT and probably NEVER will be the political system of the UK - and at the end of the day - or in October - Parliamentary Democracy will prevail. I am 100% sure that HRH, if she has to step in- will want to ensure that Parliamentary Democracy wins the day.

Greta, Some people interpret "democracy" as "my side won a binary vote", so those who lost don't matter, which creates divisions. The divisions become part and parcel of that kind of democracy. Most Western democracies have grown into something more subtle than that. All systems are flawed (including democracies), but we also have protections for minorities. Hence LGBT rights, equal opportunities, anti-racism laws, etc.

I'm waiting for the book about the whole referendum/Brexit issue, but it will show that there really hasn't been anything democratic about it. I am so angry that catchphrases "will of the people", "undemocratic backstop" and "take back control" have been used so cynically by a handful of people to "use" democracy for their own gain.

I'm actually angrier about the way democracy and parliamentary systems have been sidestepped than I am about probably food shortages, etc. What has happened will have a lasting effect on our society for decades to come.

If we are talking about the referendum I can't see anything democratic about it; it was based on fear, lies and manipulation.

If we are talking about life in general I don't think we are a very democratic country. If we were we would no longer tolerate huge divisions in society. I know we are known to be a very tolerant nation but tolerance sometimes manifests itself in apathy and turning a blind eye.

It's also profoundly undemocratic and quite sinister that Johnson has appointed unelected Dominic Cummings as his advisor. It would appear that Cummings is pulling the strings and is not accountable to any electorate.

I expect everybody knows about Peter Mandelson and Alastair Campbell as spin doctors. The main stream media was always having a dig at them, but Cummings has taken this to a whole new level, but the media is mainly ignoring him.

What I want to know is do you think what is happening here in the U.K. is democratic; within the accepted norms of a modern democratic society.

And what I am saying is that you will get two opinions because Leavers and Remainers have different understandings of 'democracy'.

FWIW, I think that since the referendum very strong evidence has emerged that it was corrupted by fraud, lies and illegality. That the result is unsafe and so cannot be called democratic.

I also know that there is more to democracy than 'winning' a vote; that the views of 'minorities have to be taken into account and that it includes a right to oppose.

I have never thought our parliamentary was particularly democratic as our FPTP system effectively disenfranchises a very significant number of voters. I also think that it is wide open to corruption through party funding and the existence of powerful lobbies.

We have a very old system of parliamentary government by an elite which has had some tweaking from time to time to create the appearance of more equal access to a say in how the country is run, but while the constitution sounds fine in theory it depends on voluntary 'gentlemanlike' and 'honourable' behaviour. Inadequate in this day and age. As the past 3 years have demonstrated.

Democracy is dying fast, in my opinion.

In the context of the current situation, I think democracy has failed.

I've thought that a future essay title for students of politics could be something like "Explain how the events of 2016-2019 highlighted the flaws in the concept of democracy".

Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch.

A decent democracy should have built-in safeguards to protect minorities and ensure that the issue(s) being voted on are crystal clear.

There's a problem in some countries which are trying to modernise by introducing Western-style democracy, but where the population is generally not educated and/or doesn't understand the issues. Democracy can easily become an excuse for bullies to have their own way. It turns into the faction which can shout the loudest getting its own way.

I usually get shouted down when I try to explain why I don't believe in unconditional democracy.

Ah MaizieD it would be grand seriously, to debate about Ancient Greece with you but I’m not asking about democracy as a definition centuries ago or even what the Greeks thought it was. I’m well aware of the roots of democracy and how for example women and slaves were treated then. Women are still denied their rights and we still have slaves in many places whose governments declare themselves democracies. What I want to know is do you think what is happening here in the U.K. is democratic; within the accepted norms of a modern democratic society. We live in a parliamentary democracy were my MP represents me and my neighbours equally whether I voted for her/him or not and whether I voted leave or remain. I have not stated how I voted but I am questioning what has happened and if the process has been highjacked by people who are not elected and represent no one but themselves.

I always believed that democracy was a method where everyone had a chance of having their choice win/or be heard .There is no democracy in the UK ,there is England using bully boy tactics and the rest of us who have no chance in hell of ever getting our options through the H.OF C.85% of MP's are ENGLISH .so its an English parliament which barely tolerates any one who isn't.They show no one respect .

Just listen to the treatment of the other MP's the derision,the appalling screaming at ,in particular tha ELECTED SNP members who have been sworn at and told to "go back home where you belong" .Its not our parliament ,it is not democracy at work .

The Holyrood parliament works on a different system ,if it were a FPTP system we the SNP would have over 80% MSP's BUT it works fairly well with the proportional representation when they all play nice .Hopefully we've learned how not to do it fromour "masters" in WM .