Corbyn as caretaker

There is no suggesting of a "Party of Unity".

The point of a Government of National Unity is that it is only necessary in extreme circumstances to avert a national disaster - in the present case the disaster of a chaotic no-deal brexit.

The GNU would have no other policies.

I would prefer Article 50 to be revoked as we can do that unilaterally, whereas an extension requires the agreement of our EU partners.

However if there is an extension, followed by another referendum, we must somehow safeguard our democracy from the same foriegn interference and other malign forces which influenced the result of the fraudulent referendum of 2016.

It would have to be clearly explained exactly what "leave" meant and not allow 57 varieties of lies and fairy tale promises to beguile the voters into thinking they could possibly be better off.

Varian

"Our aim is to stop brexit altogether. We cannot be half in and half out of the EU and we, like most British people (according to the overwhelming evidence of opinion polls for the last two years or more), believe that it is best for us to remain in the EU. "
--

That raises the point I keep making.

How can you have a 'Party of Unity' when the Parties are not united?

How can you have a ' Party of Unity' where the respective parties do not agree with the final solution?

How can you have a ' Party of Unity ' that is made up of parties who have spoken of how disgraceful our politics has been and propagandised issues such as ' Unelected Leaders ', ' Proroguing of Parliament, ' Undemocratic Government ' who now think those' priciples' no longer apply because ' They say so'?

A) They hold different opinions as to Remain/Leave.

B) They want a 2nd Referendum but do not agree as to whether they would abide by the result, DISGRACEFUL!

C) They have different views over another Scottish Referendum.

D) They do not agree with each others politics.

E) They don't agree over Article 50. Albeit for a short period they will look united to get what they want and then argue the toss all over again whether to REVOKE or not. Parliament has voted against Revoking Article 50 but hey let's keep going until we get what what ' we' want.

Grandad

"POGS, you seem to spend a considerable amount of time in "Carping" at all and sundry on this forum and many outside of it in regard to the solutions they put forward to resolve the current crisis this country now finds itself in."
--

My ' carping' as you politely put it must be annoying for those posters who I dare to challenge the points they raise.

My ' carping' will upset posters who don't like their hypocrisy being pointed out or simply want only their opinions heard/read without challenge I guess.

I will to continue to ' carp' and I don't have a problem with you or any other poster who I deem to ' spend a considerable amount of time carping' from doing the same.

Fending off belittling posts is par for the course by the way when it comes from posters I dare to challenge the opinion of, it's a pity you however you have to result to such a style of posting as you usually prefer to defend your opinion not try to shut others down.

As the one who has been accused of being a "rabid remainer", I have to tell you that the Liberal Democrats have most certainly not ruled out working with Corbyn or anyone else to stop a no deal brexit.

Our aim is to stop brexit altogether. We cannot be half in and half out of the EU and we, like most British people (according to the overwhelming evidence of opinion polls for the last two years or more), believe that it is best for us to remain in the EU.

There is nothing rabid or fanatical about this opinion. It is entirely rational and evidence-based unlike the quasi-religious belief of some leavers in unicorns and rainbows, now morphing into claims that it won't be as bad as WWII.

Jo Swinson has not ruled out working with Corbyn. She merely stated what most MPs know to be true that he will not be able to command a majority in the House of Commons and it would be better to find a more unifying well respected candidate such as Harriet Harman or Ken Clarke.

^rabid - having or proceeding from extreme or fanatical support of or belief in something.
Example: "the show's small but rabid fan base"
synonyms: extreme, fanatical, overzealous, over-enthusiastic, extremist, violent, maniacal, wild, passionate, fervent, diehard, uncompromising.

I do not think Grandads use of the word rabid is wrong although I think, at times in the whole Brexit saga, it could be said about many, if not all of us. What I do not understand is what has happened to the Liberals; they just don't seem to be very liberal any more.

However, there are so many currents going on at the moment. Each group; Obsessive Remainers, Moderate Remainers, Moderate Leavers and Obsessive Leavers all seem to have other things they are trying to protect.

This means that Liberal Party Obsessive Remainers will not contemplate working in the best interests of remain if they have to work with Jeremy Corbyn as they are equally obsessive about their own rise to power.

You would think that Moderate Remainers and Moderate Leavers could work with each other but again Party Politics get in the way. It does seem - the only positive I can see, that Moderate Remainers and Moderate Leavers will work with Obsessive Remainers at least until they stop a No-Deal Brexit. But after that, it's anyone's guess. I can see that as soon as they managed to get No-Deal Brexit stopped (if they can put enough of their other prejudices aside to do it) the Obsessive Remainers could well start asking all the "how can you" questions of the Moderate Remainers and Moderate Leavers and the Moderate Remainers and Moderate Leavers could well fall out on the grounds of Party Politics (again).

You can see one group is missing here. All the Obsessive Leavers have to do is sit back and wait for the other groups to find some reason why they cannot work together and they are home. One No-Deal Brexit served up on a platter.

A question for Grandad ' has JC committed, unequivocably, to a second Ref and fully 100% back Remain'?

(I do think I know the answer- but would like to hear from you, thanks)

If Jeremy Corbyn is not considered a fit and proper person to lead a government of National Unity as would be expected, how can he ever be considered a fit and proper person to lead the country if , god forbid, Labour win the next G.E?! Pushing him to one side must be telling us all, and him, 'something'!!!

I think it really is going to be impossible to bring the country together - at least over the next few years - so that can't be a priority. It needs to be somebody who will forget about tribal politics and winning party votes. The priority has to be asking for an extension because it's blindingly obvious to anybody that the country isn't prepared. Yes, it will mean a few demos, so it needs to be somebody who is tough enough not to cave into "blackmail".

I agree, a general election would solve nothing but would just cause more dissension.

I think Margaret Beckett is perhaps too 'nice' and not ruthless enough to be 'caretaker PM' If this were to ever happen then we would need a caretaker who is not propped up by those who have ulterior motives like those behind Corbyn.
He is so disliked by so many that he is extremely unlikely to bring the country together, something which would be a near impossible task anyway.

Are you a Labour supporter or are you trying to be a stirrer? ;-)

The Conservative/LD coalition is irrelevant and the LD presence resulted in the Conservatives not getting all their own way.

It’s telling that Jo Swinson was happier propping up David Cameron for five years than the Labour leader for five weeks!

How would a general election solve anything?

It wouldn't show whether people are for or against Brexit because people would not necessarily vote according to their Brexit views. Apparently, there are about 5 million Conservative Remainers. Many would vote LibDem, but many would stick with the Conservatives, especially if they thought a Labour candidate might win.

Labour doesn't really count as a Remain party either, although some would vote Labour for their social policies. Corbyn has flipflopped over Brexit so much. His fence sitting has nowhere else to go.

A general election wouldn't result in the "unicorn" solution of a "soft Brexit" many people had thought possible. It would still end up with "no deal" because that's all that's left.

Both Conservative and Labour parties are more concerned about trying to hold their parties together by outdoing the Farage mob than what would be best for the country.

Whatever the outcome of a general election, the country would still be split almost half and half with nobody really knowing how people would vote in a second referendum.

We need a strong leader who is respected by the majority of MPs, who has the courage to do something which will probably be deeply unpopular and has no career aspirations, which is why Ken Clark and Harriet Harman have been suggested. Margaret Becket is another person whose name has been mentioned. Corbyn is not up to the job.

Rabid Corbynites ?

varian, I addressed you as a rabid remainer as continually see only one solution to the Brexit crisis, that being the annulment of the 2016 Referendum result, and then for Britain to remain in the European Union.

I too am a remainer, but I recognise that the above will never be accepted by those (the majority) who voted leave. Therefore, a compromise has to be found and that I believe would be to bring about a General Election which (hopefully) would be an acceptable solution to the vast majority in this country.

So varian, I apologize if you found my use of the word "rabid" offensive but I always view persons who are unable to seek or find Compromise in their held views as "rabid".

Anyway, I am off to the office for a couple of hours and will address points raised overnight by growmore overnight on return.

Thank you growstuff

I think it is both revealing and alarming that Grandad calls me a "rabid remainer" because I have not changed my view that the UK should remain a full member of the EU.

I am not "rabid". I am a rational remainer, a fervent remainer, a staunch remainer, someone who sees that although the EU is far from perfect, our membership has been hugely beneficial and I naturally want it to continue.

The casual abuse of anyone who will not accept the unacceptable or defend the indefensible as " rabid" may be commonplace in the Daily Express, but it is sad to see on GN.

Grandad, From what I have seen, Varian is very open about her views. However, I really don't see the post in any way compares with the kind of violence you're claiming. Quite honestly, I have seen more aggression from Brexiters at some of the marches they have organised. For example, I can understand that some people find Steve Bray annoying, but I haven't seen any evidence that Remainers have acted towards Leavers in the way Brexiters did towards him. I haven't seen any Remainers hassling Leave MPs in the way Anna Soubry was verbally abused.

If you have any evidence to the contrary, I'm happy to believe you.

Unfortunately, some Brexiters seem to forget that nearly 16 million (or more) people disagree with them, some of whom will have their lives affected. It seems they don't care and are quite happy to goad people with their silly comments about having parties. It really does seem that these people don't care that there really is no solution to the Irish border and things aren't going to turn out alright on the night. The divisions in society will continue for decades, as people lose their jobs and freedom to live/work in Europe, prices of many commodities rise and we depend even more on the US. Rather than uniting the country with its Goebbels-style rhetoric, the fundamentals on which our society is based are being smashed, which is precisely what Farage & Co have wanted all along.

There was a really interesting programme on Channel 5 called "The Trouble with the Tories" (Part 2), written and presented by Michael Portillo. Portillo is a Brexiter, but the programme is quite factual and has interviews with a number of leading politicians.

I can't do a direct link but it can be found on Channel 5 catch up.

I have a (maybe ...?) unique way of judging politicians. (Bearing in mind, that we don't know them at all - only by their actions and their public persona.)

Would you let this person babysit your grandchildren?

Johnson ...? No!

Gove ...? Maybe

Diane Abbot ... No!

Teresa May ...? Yes

Hilary Benn ...? Yes

Oh, I could go on and on. Try it for yourself!

BUT ...

CORBYN ...? No Way! I wouldn't trust this man to look after my houseplants - let alone a 'Caretaker Government'!

If violence is taking place at work, employers have a legal duty to report it.

How do you know about these attacks, Grandad? I've just spend a few minutes searching for "Brexit workplace attack" and could find nothing, apart from reports of attacks on Polish workers.

Grieve and other Tory members have today pointed out they are not prepared to bring down their Government merely to put a Corbyn Government in its place.

Without Tory rebel support, there's not a hope in hell of giving Boris the boot.

Labour just doesn't have the numbers, with or without Swinson's support. No GNU will be possible without a PM candidate who can win those Tory rebel votes.

MaizieD, no employer is going to admit that employee disruption and violence is taking place on their premises. That is the reasons why it is not being widely reported. It could be also that the mass media considers that it would not be wise to bring such instability to public attention in the present situation. (just my thoughts on that in the last).

In regard to attacks on leave voters in workplaces where it is thought that large-scale redundancies could take place should Britain leave with no deal, then that is very much now happening.

However, should it be that the result of the referendum was disregarded and a second referendum brought about, then the workplace situation could be reversed with those who voted leave having very strong feelings against those they view as being responsible for their majority view being ignored.

It does not take much to imagine what could happen at campaign meetings with feeling on both sides running very high.

Evidence to the above can be witnessed in Varians post @ 22:41 today. In that as a rabid remainer, Varian exhibits no compromise whatsoever.

You only need that on both sides in this ever-growing crisis to have the foundations of a terrible conflict.

These useful idiots resolve looks like its going to be very short lived indeed, The Remain club is falling apart, riven by dissent and bickering. Thank goodness we no longer have T. May as PM and Brexiteers are now in charge. Roll on October 31st.

The above could bring widespread disruption onto the streets of Britain while that second referendum campaign was carried out. As evidence of the possibility of the above coming about, reports of attacks on those who have admitted to voting to leave the European Union have been rapidly increasing in recent weeks in Britains workplaces.

I'm not sure that I follow your reasoning, Grandad

Don't 'attacks on those who have admitted to voting leave' suggest that should we actually leave these attacks could intensify? Surely leaving would exacerbate rather than calm this situation?

I'm very sorry to hear that this is happening, though it doesn't appear to be common knowledge.

on leaving Britain must obtain from the EU a full trade and customs agreement to mitigate the impact on employment and in that the whole British economy.

I see very little prospect of that happening. That being so, I would rather we dealt with disappointed Leavers from a position within the EU, offering the prospect of retaining jobs and economic recovery, than have to deal with equally disappointed Remain voters facing unemployment and even more 'austerity'. (And, perhaps, with leave voters who, having been promised a rosy future outside the EU, are not quite so willing to accept a period of 'difficulty' as some of our fervent Gnet Leavers seem to be.)

We have had a terrible conflict for the last three years. It seems to most of us that the brexit nonsense should be stopped but if there are still leave voters who cannot accept that let us have another vote.