Feminism

Doodledog childcare has been the focus of the discussion because it is such a clear example of how the patriachy devides work into that which has financial value and that which doesn't, and how, even though women have acheived equality in many areas, the patriarchal nature of the system always acts against them.
All the things you mention are part of that system. It was a system which feminism originally challenged, but now seems to just accept (where are the Reclaim the Night marches now? ). One of the reasons for the lack of action is the way women have become overwhelmed by the demands put on them. There are signs that women of all ages are beginning to act and demand their rights again.- The women's march on Washington 2017 the anthem of the Women's movement- and Pink Pussy Hats
www.youtube.com/watch?v=sJah9AFTMlw&list=RDMmc9QbpqCeI&index=2

By 'many men', I meant 'a lot of men', not that few men would take it seriously . I am used to proofreading after sending, but I can't work out how to edit on here.

Surely feminism is about much more than who looks after the babies? Obviously childbirth and childcare are important parts of people's lives for a while, and yes - without both parents taking a share, it does limit chances, and usually for women; but to me, feminism is about much more than that.

Period poverty, rape and sexual assault, glass ceilings and gender pay gaps, fear of being in some areas alone at night, subliminal messages about what women 'should' do (and what they shouldn't) can all make a woman's life more difficult than a man's. Feminism should challenge those things, and many others.

The idea that emotional labour such as buying presents, writing cards, sending RSVPs, thinking of what to have for dinner, making sure there is soap in the bathroom and clean sheets on the bed, checking that the kids have clean clothes that are suitable for what they are doing, etc etc. is 'women's work' is something else that can be exhausting after a full day at paid work, even if the vacuuming and washing up are shared, or a cleaner does the heavy work.

Feminism should challenge that, if women are to hold down careers and compete with men in the workplace. there are many other areas that feminism should be challenging - they are just off the top of my head.

We definitely need to overhaul childcare, and make the working lives of women easier; but as long as feminism is defined only in terms of reproduction and nursery places etc, it won't be taken seriously, either by women who define as childfree, or by many men.

Agree trisher, in relation to nursery education being free. The problem is the capitalist system we live in.

Work place equality legally but yes, discrimination. Doesn't mean women shouldn't work. It isn't hard to be the equal (better) to men at work, just hard work and dedication. That doesn't ensure fair treatment but that doesn't mean we shouldn't continue striving.

I have been discriminated against at work MOnica. More than once. And badly bullied twice. Both by men that I did not let win.

Gagajo equality hs been legislated for in the workplace for quite a time, but there are still ways around the law.. Pregnant than Screwed has some interesting information about how women are treated. The problem is that while the patriarchal value system remains there will be victims of the system and most (but not all) will be women.
Nursery education is important and should be available to every child, but once again the patriarchal system is the norm and the cost of really good nursery education is more than the poorest paid can afford. So some low paid workers (usually women) barely cover their child care costs. A true feminist society would provide free child care for anyone.

Yes I was/am a good household manager. That is why I was a good manager when I went back to work. A damn sight better than many of the men I worked for.

I do not remember meeting much prejudice at work, I never hit a glass ceiling and the two nastiest people I worked for, one of which worked very hard at trying to undermine me at every point, were women.

absthame, what is it inherently about women that makes them better in the home? Cleaning? Industrial cleaners are often men. Cooking? Chefs - men. Organising? Men run companies.

Bringing up the next generation is obviously important. But it is only the preserve of women because it is unpaid. AND it doesn't take a lifetime. In addition, children who are in nurseries make better progress than children at home with a parent. As long as you select a good one your child should thrive. They certainly aren't some sort of child prison, as is implied here.

In addition, we are men and women OR gentlemen and ladies. Certainly not man and wife. A lady is a sociological construct (something written about by Mary Wollstonecraft 250 years ago). It certainly isn't our natural state.

Lastly, I agree, trisher, that most organisations are patriarchal, but the answer isn't that women are floundering and therefore shouldn't work, it is that we need EQUALITY in the work place. Discrimination is wrong and should be challenged.

I think one problem is absthame that our generation began almost from scratch and the fight was to offer women the same opportunities, financial rewards and prospects as men. In order for them to acheive this they needed childcare so we asked for nurseries. Unfortunately the model we copied was flawed and favoured men. As a result many young women have been left floundering in a world where all the right noises are made but the foundations remain masculine orientated. Hence the necessity for organisations like "Pregnant then Screwed". Until we teach that the rules of the patriachy favour only a few and that a more balanced society where cooperation and concern for the individual mean more than financial gain women will never be truly valued.

Ps. pinkquartze. I agree higher or further education is undervalued by both genders.

It opens up not only the prospect of improvements in employment prospects but more importantly it is a great enabler of self worth and happiness.

Trish, I have just brought myself upto date with this thread. You make the case better than I.

Most of those who purport to be presenting a case for the development of the cause are so so wrong. They are simply buying into the old male values. That does not mean no male can child care or no female can achieve success in a commercial or industrial career. But it is a fact that women are generally better equipped to deal with the complexities of home and child care than most men etc etc

Please stop accepting the idea that male values are worth more than female values, they are not. It really is time that as a society we compensate the home and family carers properly. It would be then that both men and ladies could choose the approriate career for themselves and their family and not forced into a path that is perceived as being more worthy.

Gagajo as far as your divorced friend goes she needed a better solicitor!
You have in fact answered your own question. Who knows?Perhaps voluntary work, perhaps setting up a business, perhaps doing creative or craft work. Intellectual stimulation can be found in many places.

What do stay at home parents do when children are grown up?

I need the intellectual stimulation of work. I appreciate we're all different, but even post retirement (should I ever get that far) I will need it even if it is from voluntary work.

I forgot to add that it is immeasurable how much a person's life may be enriched by education.

I know mine has been even though I have been unable to go on to the career planned because of severe health issues.

But nothing takes away what I did learn, absorb and enjoy from that time.

I am surprised that even now there are women unable to appreciate that it is good for a woman to pursue higher education if she wants to, including working for two degrees.

It is not education wasted if she then stays at home bringing up her children.
That statement reduces her to nothing more than a childcarer.
As a person she will also be someone with knowledge and skills that will shape how she parents and in time how she grandparents.
She will able to pass on all kinds of values and knowledge and views to her children that have grown through her education.

Any person is of value in many different ways
A mother can be wonderful whether she is higher educated or not.....but each woman could and should explore their own potential to the max and then be also the best parent they can be.

I don't believe education is ever wasted.

I agree, Trisher. I think it's very odd that a woman who looks after their own children 24/7 is derided as not contributing whereas if that woman's children were being looked after by someone else and the woman herself worked as a nursery nurse, looking after other people's children, she would be applauded.

Until men shoulder more of the burden, it's always going to be tough to be a woman, whatever the circumstances. I'm of an age now where many friends have/have had elderly frail parents and in my experience it's always the daughters who do the donkey work there, maybe while caring for grandchildren, too. I can't think of one man who has stepped up to the plate there.

Women would do themselves a service by supporting each other, whatever in their choices, and not manufacturing divides, which allows the patriarchy to keep on doing what they've always done.

Women should of course be equal and independent financially no argument there.

BUT

There is going to have to be big changes in the amount of government support that women get, far beyond the current levels.

I think it is up to each couple to work things out as best suits them and not have terms and conditions forced on them by people looking for easy solutions to complicated problems.

My DH travelled a lot for business, disappearing to far corners of the world (Cameroon, Sudan, DRC and remote areas of Egypt) for indefinite periods before mobile phones or email. Someone had to run the homefront and do most of the childcare.

I also managed all the family finances. I am an economist, DH is an engineer and as he said to a colleague who many years ago was aghast when DH went abroad for a month when we were just starting the house buying process. I was better qualified to deal with the intricacies of this than he was. I considered, when the children were young that I was earning my share of family resources.

My DH did share childcare when he was home, but when he was away so much playing an equal part was impossible.

At a time when women married and had children young, I delayed both so that I had a good education and 7 years work experience behind me before stopping work. I used my time at home to gain extra qualifications and was never in a situation where I could not get back to work and earn a reasonable salary, which I did as soon as my younger child started school.

On the domestic front I have always run the house, I prefer it that way, but DH is a practical engineer and builder and the fact that we now have a valuable house in Oxfordshire plus a holiday home in France is because we have taken on 4 'project' houses where DH has undertaken major building works. Most recently converting a large loft in our holiday home into two further bedrooms and two bathrooms almost entirely single handed because I am totally useless at DIY. I can hold up beams and help lift large sheets of plasterboard, but other than that and decorating DH does it all single handed, he has rewired, replumbed, replace windows etc. to the financial advantage of both of us.

As I said, it is up to each couple to work out their own breakdown of responsibilities. Providing it is a mutual and voluntary agreement and work is fairly shared, the division between the couple (and not all couples are heterosexual) is nobodies business but theirs.

I am certainly not sharing housework with DH nor am I taking on responsibility for doing DIY, No-one in their right mind would have trust in the structural stability of anything I built. just to fulfill some one elses hang-ups or definition of what they think equality is.

It is a matter of choice and decision between couples based on their inclinations and skills.

trisher, there is feminism the theory and feminism as it affects our lives.

My dear friend, who married out of uni, had a family, stayed home and raised the family, watched her husband advance up the career ladder and had a lovely life. Lived internationally, following hubby and his work. All lovely. Great standard of living.

Then, 19 years in, he left her. Has remarried twice since then. Has the same great standard of living.

She had v little recent or relevant work experience and struggled to find a job. Child support cut off when her youngest was 18. Now she lives in a small rented apartment. No security. Low wages. She would do things v differently were she to do it all again. This genuinely WAS a friend of mine. However, it was also my mothers life. Which I saw and lived with her, in poverty.

If you choose to remain out of paid employment and don't have inherited money, you are playing with fire. THIS is feminism in real life. Not just theory.

If women don't swim in the capitalistic system we live in, they sink and drown. I watched my mother drown in it. I knew at 18 I would not let that happen to me.

Gosh I didn't realise there were so many on GN who don't recognise what patriachy has done to our society and continues to do. A university degree is an acheivement and should be valued for itself not for the financial gain it brings. The idea hat it is a step to earning more is in fact quite a recent concept which means that education is only valued financially and not for the benefit to the individual.
I can't believe that people don't realise how devalued the process of raising a family has become and how some women are buying in to this concept. It really doesn't matter if it is a man or a woman but if someone chooses to stay at home and look after children that should be recognised and honoured. One of the great mistakes of old feminism is that it thought it would be enough to allow women the same opportunities and to behave the same as men. This has resulted in much pain and many problems. Until we manage to change the philosophy and make society more female orientated (that's the only way I can think to put it but this society would benefit men as well) we won't have a better future for our GDs and all the old patriarchal standards will remain behind a veil of equality.

A woman hasn’t returned to work for ten years so isn’t a great role model for her daughters?

I agree with paddyann, mostly.

Why bother going to uni if you're not going to use your learning? There are thousands of people worldwide or even just in the UK that would desperately love to be able to go to uni but can't afford it, and for someone who has been fortunate enough to do so twice just to not use their learning...

Temporary hiatus when children are young, obviously. But long term? No spousal maintenance anymore, remember. So if the marriage breaks down, financially you're screwed. It's a HUGE gamble.

Because paddyann it’s the woman’s choice. You want her to be forced to seek employment? Where then is a woman’s choice.

I have been chastised for saying the same about many women who qualify as doctors, at huge cost to country. Makes no sense.

Its not a prejudice ,I believe in teaching by example why spend years at university and give it up to stay at home EVEN when the children are both at school ? I genuinely dont understand it .

paddyann your prejudice is based on the model patriachy has laid down for society that only work outside the home has any f value and that raising children is a waste of time. It is one reason why the caring professions have been a low pay occupation for years. Until we can challenge that perception there is no hope of feminism ever reaching true equality
Your friend may have creative and interesting occupations which fill her days and provide stimulation and education for her children. Earning a wage may be necessary but not being employed is not necessarily a waste of someone's life.