Please could someone tell me why I should be really worried about Brexit with no deal

I’m with Pamela right at the beginning of the thread. You worry if you want to, this lady’s not for worrying.

Jacob Rees-Mogg on the Irish/UK border:

www.joe.co.uk/politics/jacob-rees-mogg-troubles-irish-border-196778

This was a year ago, but there still isn't a sensible solution.

Google the Clones-Cavan bus, which crosses the border four times during 30 minutes.

What about the WTO tariffs on dairy products and beef?

Any answers? Anybody?

It was not my idea nor was it a view of one side or another as far as I remember - it was an impartial idea I read which seemed to make some sense.

Good points well made MaizieD..and brings us back perfectly to the statement made by the OP.. Do you have any thoughts on what the real impacts on Britain will be, outside of the EU? Aside from a dubious PM and untrustworthy MPs of course!

One idea I remember when trying to decide which way to vote was about fear and risk-taking

Well, fear never entered into my decision to vote Remain, Callistomen. I like being in the EU.

I think the 'fear' suggestion was pushed by the Leave campaign to cover up the fact that their campaign worked heavily on people's fears. 'Project Fear' was a good meme and they got in with it first.

They don't care a jot about the implications of a hard border for the British people,

Words almost fail me, Joyfulnana, but not completely.

It may come as surprise to you but all countries have borders and most countries use their borders to control the people and goods coming onto their country. Perhaps living in the United Kingdom has made you unaware of this fact, becausee we travel freely between England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland, because we are the United Kingdom. By extension, people and goods in the EU have the same freedom because that is how the member states have arranged it. (And the UK was a prime mover in this)

The Good Friday Agreement was based on the fact that the Irish Republic and Northern Ireland were both in the EU so there was no need for border controls. Your vote, along with the votes of 17 million others has meant that if we leave the EU we can no longer implement 'no border' between the ROI and NI. That was your choice, not the EU's. There has to be a controllable border between the UK and the EU.

It seems to me that it was Leavers who didn't care a jot about the implications for Ireland. And now they're expecting the EU to sort out the mess they've made...

Bless you...

Interesting about fear being a reason for voting leave, MaizieD

One idea I remember when trying to decide which way to vote was about fear and risk-taking. The more fearful and risk-aversive someone was, the more they could be inclined to vote to stay in the EU, the status quo being what was known and safe.
Risk-takers, those less fearful of the unknown might be more likely to vote leave.

The EU doesn't want a border.

I'm sure you are aware that in any kind of negotiations the bigger interest has the upper hand. What on earth are you on about, questioning why Europe should be calling the shots? UK exceptionalism died decades ago.

Joyfulnanna Ireland is in the EU, as I'm sure you're aware, and the other EU countries want to support their fellow member.

The EU seems to care more about NI than the Westminster government does. I can't do a link to the video, but Jacob Rees-Mogg said in a speech that he's quite happy for NI to have the same kind of inspections and controls that it had during the Troubles.

Because the scared punter is an easily manipulated punter.

It's funny you should say that, BradfordLass, because when you start looking at the reasons that Leavers give for their vote they are most of them based on the emotion of fear. Pumped up beautifully by most of the media and by the Leave campaigners who were short on detail but long on fear.

Leave voters were scared of losing sovereignty, scared of being forced into a federal state of Europe, scared of their children and grandchildren being conscripted into an EU army, scared of being swamped by 3 million Turks who were just about to join the EU and invade the UK en masse; to name a few.

On the other hand, the Leave campaigns were very careful not to scare them further with the facts about how very difficult it would be to leave an institution with which we had been intimately involved for over 40 years. Nothing scary about that, of course. We'd never leave without a deal, the EU would be begging for a trade deal with us, we'd make trade deals all over the world at the drop of a hat, our seas would be full of fish again and we would lord it over those pesky Europeans who tried to steal them from us.

So now Leavers are fully primed with the most unrealistic ideas about how we were going to find it so easy to break with the EU and are frustrated because it is taking much longer than their trusted gurus said it would.

It isn't the Remainers or the EU they should be blaming for their frustration; it's the lying buggers who promised them the undeliverable. The ones who are now in power and who are blasting holes in our constitution, parliamentary democracy and economy in order to satisfy the monster they've created (and a number of them expect to make a lot of money for themselves out of the ruins).

The most sensible Leaver I know of had a Plan. A pretty workable Plan. It would have taken about 10 years to implement it but it would have been reasonably painless and not divided the country. But sense has never been a feature of the last few years...

The suggestion that Europe pay for the border is a reasonable one given their insistence that they would not negotiate further over this. How dare they call the shots!! Think Europe, think sour grapes!!

Growstuff
I didn't state that Rep of Ireland want a hard border at all. I stated that Europe want it. I don't think your remark "you are a little confused" is polite.

Gonegirl, this is one of the reasons why I said our mistake was expecting Europe to be reasonable on negotiation. They don't care a jot about the implications of a hard border for the British people, NI are some of the most patriotic British citizens. We must put their safety and security above what Europe wants. I was a remainer until Europe started acting as if it had the upper hand. We need to come out without a deal that includes a backstop. The sooner the better!!!

Yes. Two of my grandsons are half Irish (Northern) and the younger one has gone back there to live and starts a new job in Belfast next week.

Their father grew up during The Troubles. I doubt any of them would want a return of the violence.

Joyfulnanna The EU is fully aware of the situation in Ireland. Ireland remains a country in the EU and doesn't want a hard border or to pay tariffs, so I think you're a little confused. As soon as WTO tariffs are imposed the price of dairy products will increase. Some of them cross the border several times during the manufacturing/marketing process.

It seems that it is Westminster which doesn't understand the consequences of a hard border. Having listened to a few politicians on the subject (including my own MP) I seriously wonder if they understand what the GFA was all about.

I really don't understand why the EU should pay for a hard border when they don't even want it. This sounds like something out of the Trump fake news/Mexican border handbook.

Callistemon
I've just finished watching it. Now that was seriously scary.

The Northern Ireland thing is the one aspect that I do worry about. It would be horrific if there was a return to the violence of the past. That would be such a shame.

Sorry for the delay in responding Dinahmo and Mcem. I'll explain what I mean.

Dinahmo, you stated "The EU are following the rules for what happens when a country leaves, They are not being unreasonable."

I stated "our mistake was being reasonable and expecting Europe to negotiate."

After Article 50 was invoked, we started to withdraw from the EU in accordance with our own constitutional requirements and passed the Withdrawal Act to start negotiating. It's akin to a divorce settlement/agreement.

Part of that agreement was the backstop. It's obvious that the EEC want the backstop because they don't want free movement of goods going across the border of rep Eire and NI without paying tariffs.

My point (Mcem) is that Britain doesnt want a hard border because it will threaten the Anglo Irish agreement and have the IRA kicking off in NI, London etc. but the EEC dont care hence my comment about interfering with a sensitive issue which will affect British citizens.

The only solution to Europe dictating to us what they want is for THEM to pay for the border to be built in Eire and then the blame would lay with Europe and the IRA could kick off in Brussels...

To answer Gonegirls question:

for the same reason you should have worried about the Nuclear Threat in the 60's, and the K2 Disaster as the millenium came to a close and the Obesity Epidemic and much more in between and every specious disaster still to come which will keep (some of) us on tenterhooks.

Because the scared punter is an easily manipulated punter.

But then you've always known that, haven't you?

www.psychologytoday.com/nz/blog/how-risky-is-it-really/201411/why-we-are-so-easily-manipulated-the-polticis-fear?tr=HdrQuote

According to the experts, we're heading for another world recession.
No doubt that will be blamed on Brexit too.

Worrying will only make you feel bad, Gonegirl and won't solve anything. There was an old lady on tv this evening celebrating ber 105th birthday. Her secret of longevity? Being optimistic, she said.

It is all about blame.

Everyone who understands how damaging this whole brexit nonsense would be to our country if it is not stopped is focussed on who they will choose to blame.

Hang on; I thought the ERG [who pushed for the referendum in the first place] didn't back May's deal, so why are the remainer MP's getting all the blame for it?

There's a programme on BBC2 at the moment called 'China: a New World Order.
I'm recording it whilst I decide whether or not to watch it.

Now that worries me far more.

You really think this little old 77 year old on Gransnet is going to inflame the Brexit situation?

Oh yes. I'm definitely inflaming the situation with this thread. Boris must be wetting himself reading this.