How right we were

Tony Robinson?? I think you mean Tommy. Tony is a little chap who digs up people's fields.

Lecture/rant over, but I really feel very strongly about it.

I really do disagree with you maddyone about the comparisons with pre-war Germany. OK, so I speak German and have studied original documents and I have a passion for history, especially social history. I accept that not everybody has studied 1930s Germany in the depth I have. (Sorry if that sounds like bragging - it's a statement of fact).

Germany in the 1920s was an educated, cultured country. It was beginning to recover from WW1, but it had a fragile democracy and economy. Jews were reasonably well integrated and were treated better than in many other European countries. There were numerous cases of intermarriage and many Jews no longer believed in Judaism, but were secular.

I've read numerous newspaper articles, diaries and letters written in early 1930s Germany. Some people were worried (increasingly so), especially minorities, which is why some people emigrated if they could. However, people really didn't see what was coming. They voted for the Nazis because they were promising a land of milk and honey to people who had lived through WW1 and the late 1920s depression. Jews, socialists, gays, Slavs, the disabled and unemployed were demonised and gradually people began to believe the media. Laws were changed to enable the government to have its way. There were so many parallels with what's happening now that it really is frightening.

It took Germany years to recover morally from WW2. There was an overwhelming sense of guilt because people finally realised that they had enabled the holocaust by not standing up sooner and being swayed by short term gains (radios, better roads, affordable cars, jobs).

I hope to goodness that nothing really awful happens. The UK has a stronger democracy and more robust constitutional laws than Germany had in the early 1930s, which is precisely why we must never let anybody attack them.

Tony Robinson and his supporters do not represent the vast majority of leave voters. They do not represent my 91 year old mother.
To suggest it is so is disingenuous in the extreme.

www.facebook.com/TeganBitesBack/videos/511005293022289/

will Leavers stand by them, or make a stand and say 'not in our name' ?

Just spoken to DD1 on Skype - she has begged me not to go to march on 19th- and has discussed this with DD2. OH agrees with them - they are all so concerned about the thugs from EDL and BF- hiding behind Ukip, Tony Robinson, Farage and Brexit party.

Okay Labaik, of course I understand that people/parents will be very worried about the supply of essential medicines.

Perhaps you can answer my question, do you think it’s acceptable for someone to say that leave voters should be denied essential medication?

Some parents of insulin dependent children will have voted leave, others will have voted remain. Are you suggesting that the children of leave voters be denied their medications?

jura; not of the lovely people who voted leave had any intention of causing this and now don't hold themselves responsible for it in any way. It's all our fault...

maddyone; you were the one commenting on the nasty comments about withholding medicine from leave voters so I'm asking you....

The scenes in London today were appalling - the thugs have taken to the streets- in the name of Tony Robinson and Brexit - nazi salutes, swastikas, beating up police and anyone standing in their way. Sheer threats and intimidation - and threatening the peaceful demonstrations planned for the 19th.
Previous remain demos included elderly and handicapped people, families with children of all ages, all in a peaceful, joyful and often humoristic manner.

Who are you directing the question to Labaik? Or it is a general question?

Did someone defend people giving Nazi salutes?

Can I ask you a straight question. If your child is insulin dependent and you have been told that leaving the EU with no deal might mean that he or she could die, would you still be prepared to take that risk? Yes or no [because yellowhammer does say there's a risk and it isn't even worst case scenario]. And, if your child isn't insulin dependent can you understand why someone whose child is might be angry with people that are prepared to take that risk??

I've said this before; the similarities with pre was Germany are about how people can gain power over a period of time, not necessarily to put people in concentration camps etc. But UKIP etc have used racism to gain popularity. Anna Soubry didn't speak yesterday because she saw people giving Nazi salutes in the crowd. How can you defend that? A woman committed suicide recently and the coroner cited stress over Brexit as one of the causes. The argument regarding medicine is about how leave voters have put some members of society at risk but don't seem to care about it .

Maizie, you answered my question by outlining what you think could/should have happened, and I have some sympathy with the suggestion that Cameron could have tried to renegotiate with the EU, although we have no idea what might have happened if he had done.

The analogy with Tony Blair is interesting but probably not terribly relevant, although he will remain a war criminal in my mind at least, but that’s just my opinion.

The claim that Britain is similar to pre war Germany in the 30s is ludicrous. As Jabberwok says, we do not have concentration camps, we do not euthanise mentally ill people, we don’t burn books or paint symbols on shop windows or boycott certain businesses and we don’t insist on certain ways of thinking ( although there has been a despicable suggestion on another thread, I think it’s another thread, that leave voters should be denied their medicines!) We are certainly nothing like pre war Germany at all.

Growstuff is right, we must never forget.

Incredible times, totally unchartered territory :

www.facebook.com/Channel4News/videos/468847167304123/

There must come a critical point when there are enough of them to form a new party. Between them, they must have wealthy contacts who would back them and they've certainly got the experience to form a new party.

GracesGran If the war hasn't been declared illegal, using the word "illegal" as a fixed epithet every time the war is mentioned is possibly libellous.

Someone else who may resign

Robert Peston
@Peston
·
The Lord Chancellor Robert Buckland is staying put and will not resign unless and until @BorisJohnson breaks the law, I understand. Buckland has told the PM that honouring the rule of law is the defining issue for him.

Bets on next Tory to have the whip withdrawn.

I reckon John Major

Ken Clarke said this weekend that he would never join the Tories if he was starting out again

“If I was 20 and deciding who to vote for, the last party to get my vote would be the hard right nationalist Tory party”

No, growstuff it hasn't but you are talking about an argument put forward by those who care nothing for the truth, or for facts but just spout what the right wing press tells them.

Has the war actually been ruled "illegal"?

Did she Labaik? I haven't a clue. I'd be interested in her reasoning. There are advantages and disadvantages to any written constitution. On the one hand it sets certain principles in stone. On the other hand, you get constitutional lawyers arguing about the meaning and interpretation of one phrase, as happens in the US and France.

But surely the reason that the House of Commons "hardly raised a murmer", was that the Conservatives were also in favour of that illegal war. Jabberwok

Why did Caroline Lucas say we needed a written constitution?