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How right we were

(186 Posts)
Whitewavemark2 Thu 05-Sept-19 08:08:17

I expect everyone can remember our posts during the Tory leadership elections and the extinctive knowledge that Johnson would be a disaster as leader.

How right we were.

Johnson is treating this great office of state as an entitlement rather than a huge responsibility. His reputation for laziness and ill preparedness means that his mentor Cummings can take total control and rule with an iron fist.

On Tuesday his performance was an absolute car crash. His incoherent argument was bumbled out resulting in his first voting lose, and his assurance that his majority of 1 dropped to -24 (I think, tbh I’ve lost count)

On Wednesday at PMQs- his backbencher must have sat more in hope than expectation and they weren’t disappointed. Within minutes of his standing it was clear that they were heading for another disaster. Instead of measured thoughtful replies, what we got was a show of excruciating narcissistic ego.

What he achieved was what many thought in the Tory party was impossible.

He made Corbyn look like a statesman.

However he totally lost the house once Dhesi stood up and asked him to apologise for his racist Islamophobic comments.
Johnson arrogance means however, that he is incapable of saying sorry - ever. So all the house got was a bumbling load of piffle

He couldn’t wait to scurry off back to his leave campaigners in number 10. He is safe there playing his fantasy war games with Cummings.

He came back later for even further humiliation. He lost the commons timetable and couldn’t even persuade them to decide to boot him out to run an election.

3 votes carried out 3 lost. 100% failure.

Ladies our instincts were so right.

Scentia Fri 06-Sept-19 09:17:51

I have a theory that there will be a GE and it will be very much split between Labour/Lib Dem and Greens they will all pull together only on the understanding that JC does not take charge and we will have a second referendum, we will all vote to stay in the EU after all and this last three years will go down in history and be question 6 on some exam in 15 years time.

I can hope!!

Lessismore Fri 06-Sept-19 09:15:00

www.theguardian.com/politics/video/2019/sep/05/boris-johnson-rambles-through-attempt-recite-police-caution-video

This is so embarrassing. Why doesn't he write a speech or have notes?

Urmstongran Fri 06-Sept-19 09:09:36

Boris did start out hoping that, with ‘oomph’ he’d get Brexit past this Parliament. But it’s now pretty clear that we can expect no Brexit resolution from this particular group of MPs.

They won’t endorse a deal, nor will they tolerate no deal. They can’t bring themselves to depose the Prime Minister, but won’t let him govern properly either.

They can’t quite decide if they should let him have a general election, but this chaos means one will come soon. So Team Boris has started campaigning for an election: everything now depends on it. It’s the only choice he has left.

#goBoris

Grandad1943 Fri 06-Sept-19 08:26:32

I believe that It has been the failure of centre governments throughout the world that brought forward the emergence of hard-left and hard-right politics. In Britain what was supposed to be a "socialist government" at the time of the millennium seen the emergence of zero-hours contracts, the Gig Economy, the housing crisis and much else that has had a negative impact on so many.

The above negated for many people the benefits of the minimum wage that the Blair government trumpeted as it's great achievement. To add to the foregoing there has been a constant rise in the power of multinational companies that have the power to play one country against others in attempts to gain their manufacturing etc.

For many average families, it has seemed in recent years that they have no powers to change anything as centre-left and centre-right governments have been seen to support the status quo even through such times as the Banking Crisis for which the average person was in the end expected to pay for.

I feel that the Referendum result was in many ways the electorate "kicking back" at the establishment especially in the Labour Party heartlands of the north of England.

In many respects, we now reap what has been sown over many years by centre governments both of the left and right. Hence the rise of Boris Johnson and Dominic Cummings in Britain, Trump in America along with other extremes of government in various States throughout the world.

Labaik Thu 05-Sept-19 23:41:51

We met an American couple last year who told us that Trump has divided friends and families [as has Brexit here]. They were in despair at what was happening...

Labaik Thu 05-Sept-19 23:37:14

gmarie; I used to follow a facebook page called 'my sad cat' and this was from a time when the idea of Trump being president of America was just a joke. I felt pretty much the same way, on the night that Trump was elected as I did when the UK voted to leave the EU. There are so many parallels with the same tactics being used to gain those results. It's heartbreaking to see what's happening to our once great countries.

Whitewavemark2 Thu 05-Sept-19 21:44:41

Cheers gmarie

You will be cheered to know that it is like rats leaving a sinking ship here at the moment. I am not quite sure now how many have announced that they are leaving or have left.

But unfortunately what I fear is actually happening is that the traditional tory moderates are jumping ship and will be replaced with hard right wingers.

gmarie Thu 05-Sept-19 21:41:08

And followed up with "Great Britain is always ahead of us on stuff like this! They elected a woman head of state in 1979 and we didn't do that until possibly someday."

Props to you ladies. flowers

gmarie Thu 05-Sept-19 21:31:26

I just watched a You Tube clip from today's airing of The Late Show with Stephen Colbert. The description of the video was, "The sight of conservative British lawmakers standing up to PM Boris Johnson gives Stephen Colbert hope that Republican lawmakers in the U.S. may one day summon the courage to stand up to their party's leader." The monologue, of course was all about Philip Lee's "defection" during BJ's speech. Colbert said, "These lawmakers bucking their own party to stand up to an unnaturally blond man with terrible ideas gives me hope." grin

Whitewavemark2 Thu 05-Sept-19 21:29:31

less we know that Johnson has a reputation for laziness and never preparing or reading his brief.

The point is he tries to wing it which is fine when you are in a position that doesn’t matter much, but he is our Prime Minister for gods sake!

I loathed Thatcher, but I would never have been able to say the same about her, and it showed.

The Tory party must be wondering what ever they have done. What a disaster.

But they can’t say that they were never warned

varian Thu 05-Sept-19 20:49:23

Trump should be seen as a warning to us in the UK. Our own liar Boris Johnson has managed to fool a lot of people, but he doesn't look likely to last as long as Trump.

gmarie Thu 05-Sept-19 20:46:21

felice, yes, scary is a very good word for it. That is what life is like every, single day here in the US. I actually come on Gransnet to escape our own brand of lunacy. I feel like I live in a bizarre, Twilight Zone-ish world. There is SO much that happens every day that the news can't keep up and much of what Trump does escapes the light of day. The hard right and mega wealthy have taken advantage and he's filled cabinet and advisory posts with people working against the agencies they oversee! We have a former big pharma lobbyist running Health and Human Services.
and a former coal lobbyist is in charge of the Environmental Protections Agency, just to name two. Scores in his orbit have been indicted and/or embroiled in scandal and many others have been fired or quit in frustration. He's told over 15,000 proven lies since taking office (!) and yet we can't get rid of him and his approval ratings continue to be stable. Makes me feel very depressed.

Sorry for the off topic rant on this thread.

Lessismore Thu 05-Sept-19 20:44:54

I have just seen a clip of BJ talking in front of police officers.

It's absolutely desperate. Surely he has access to people who can write speeches.

varian Thu 05-Sept-19 20:03:40

I have long thought, ever since his antics at the closing ceremony at the 2008 Beijing Olympics, that Boris Johnson was a national embarassment,

It now seems that , rather late in the day, even the Conservative Party has realised that.

I would not bet on that oaf still being PM on 1st November.

Grandad1943 Thu 05-Sept-19 17:40:24

Nonnie, in regard to your post @16:55. Today, the problem for Boris Johnson is not just his failed tactics and strategy as your copied and paste article from the Times suggests. The Tory Parties main problem since the recall of Parliament has been Johnson's performance both in and outside of Parliament.

The removal of the whip and de-selection of twenty-one senior Conservative MPs was in the opinion of many the biggest own goal scored in recent political history.

Johnsons "Demolition" at the hands of Corbyn and many other MPs during Prime Minister's questions was an embarrassment to watch, aided by his own bluster and buffoonery.

It is possible that Johnson's performance may (if he granted sufficient time) improve. However, it is Johnson's unflinching support for Dominic Cummings that is making many Tory MPs ever more hostile to their leader and Prime Minister.

After all, no person while working should be subject to drunken expletive-ridden verbal tirades being hurled against them as many Conservative MPs have been on the receiving end of in recent weeks.

To many, the Johnson administration is totally out of control with no clear strategy outside of lies, bluster, abuse and taking Britain out of the European Union with no deal.

And even in the last of the above he continually speaks lies on.

Davidhs Thu 05-Sept-19 17:11:22

It’s too early to talk about a major realignment of parties, the Liberals picking up a lot of seats will be no surprise to me. They have had a very poor share of MPs compared with votes in the past, with the Brexit party taking votes off the Tories and Labour, Liberals gaining 20+ seats is not unrealistic.

Just how they would get along with Labour and SNP in coalition is an open question.

Whitewavemark2 Thu 05-Sept-19 17:04:22

It will be interesting to see what unfolds

Nonnie Thu 05-Sept-19 16:55:19

I think he had a cunning plan (or his puppet master did) but it hasn't gone as planned.

This is interesting reading, I'm posting the whole thing as they expect you to subscribe.

september 4 2019, 5:00pm, the times
Boris Johnson and Dominic Cummings believe their plan can still work
jenni russell
While no one foresaw the scale of the rebellion a showdown with parliament was long planned
The country is being played on a grand scale by the men in Downing Street. Nothing is as it seems. Boris Johnson wanted and intended to lose his historic vote. The headlines declaring he has lost control are only half right.
Johnson and his chief strategist, Dominic Cummings, deliberately planned and engineered last night’s defeat, goading the Commons into opposing him; he was lying to his party, parliament and the country when he claimed that he was being pushed into calling an election.
An early election that he could deny seeking is exactly what he has been scheming to achieve ever since he took power. And although elements of this strategy went badly wrong this week it is just plausible that Johnson’s tactics of deception could give him victory still.
Five weeks ago Tory insiders explained to me how the prime minister was going to free himself from the prison of a one-vote majority, secure five years in power, outflank the Brexit Party at the polls and end up with enough MPs to let him do what he wanted with Brexit after that.
Everything that has happened since, from the revelation in a Scottish court that Johnson had secretly planned the proroguing of parliament as early as mid-August to the immediate attempt to hold an election, has borne out that this is indeed the plan. As the newly ousted rebel Sir Nicholas Soames says, “this was all completely set up”.
It was essential to Johnson’s scheme to win over Brexiteers that he should look like the reliable champion of no-deal. The tactic was to frame him as a leader imprisoned on two sides: by MPs on the one hand and an intransigent Europe on the other. For this to work he needed to push parliament into explicitly blocking no-deal, and for the EU to be painted as obstinate opponents of a new deal. Then he could claim to be fighting an unwanted but necessary election as the trustworthy, proven standard-bearer of Brexit.
Two factors have thrown this strategy off course. The first is the scale and seriousness of the Conservative rebellion, with several former senior ministers and distinguished backbenchers among the 21 malcontents. These are people who embody what Johnson used to claim to be: moderate, one-nation, liberal Tories. They appeal to middle-ground Conservative voters who are repulsed by the Brexit Party elements. Nobody in No 10 expected that. The rebellion was meant to be tiny, and the threats of deselection were intended to be deterrents, not reality.

Johnson was genuinely trying to win over the prospective rebels at his meeting with them on Tuesday, MPs who were present tell me; they refused because they felt they were being played for fools, expected to believe in sham negotiations with the EU and given no detail. What Johnson claimed to be aiming for was, Soames told me, “unobtainable nonsense — scrapping the backstop and rewriting the whole bloody thing”.
The second unexpected obstacle is Jeremy Corbyn’s refusal to back an instant election for mid-October. Johnson and Cummings had calculated that he would be unable to resist the election he has long claimed to want. Instead Corbyn has seen that move as the tank trap it is, and is refusing to agree an election on Johnson’s terms. He won’t support one at least until the legislation that blocks no-deal has been passed.
On the face of it these changes leave Johnson marooned, with a majority gone, an election blocked, and his party looking incompetent, mean and dominated by its right wing. “The optics are terrible,” one Johnson insider tells me. Another former supporter is enraged by the brutality of the prime minister’s approach, which he fears will alienate an entire strand of Tory voters.
This is not how it’s seen in No 10 where, as one insider tells me, “emotions have been oscillating” but the view is that the strategy can still win through. The defenestration of moderate Tory rebels is regarded with personal regret but steely political indifference. The calculation is that voters in swing towns won’t know or care about the absence of Ken Clarke or Philip Hammond. The priority for Johnson is ensuring that the next batch of MPs will faithfully deliver what he promises. “If nice guy John is replaced by Jim, who is neither nice nor thoughtful, that’s sad but irrelevant — Jim will back the strategy.”
The No 10 team are even more bullish about their ability to secure an election within weeks. They are scheming to evade Corbyn’s block in ways they won’t spell out: “Various plans are in motion,” I’m told. The belief remains that the Labour leader won’t be able to resist the appeal of a general election for long.
From this moment on, Johnson and the Tories are going to batter the electorate with the message that they are defending democracy and championing the people against rebel MPs, beastly Europe and the elites. The pitch will be: give me the mandate to get the best deal possible, and trust me to deliver no-deal if I can’t.
This is an incredibly dangerous moment for those of us who detest what Johnson is doing in driving the country and the Tory party to the right. His appeal looks puzzlingly limited. He is only polling a third of the vote, well below Theresa May in 2017. Yet on current forecasts that will win him a decent majority, perhaps 25 to 30 seats, because the opposition to him is so split.
Unless the left and liberal parties can co-ordinate just as effectively on parliamentary and electoral strategy as they did in last night’s vote, Johnson could still be on track to get the victory he’s lying to achieve.

mcem Thu 05-Sept-19 16:27:33

Johnson's good start??
Must've blinked and missed that!
Truly a post that further proves that some of us dwell in a parallel universe.

Whitewavemark2 Thu 05-Sept-19 16:04:53

That’s what I thought grow?

growstuff Thu 05-Sept-19 16:02:16

Whitewave, it doesn't! That's why a GE wouldn't solve anything. One way or the other this is going to go rumbling on for decades.

Even if/when the UK leaves the EU, there will be squabbling about new trade other agreements amongst people in the UK. Issues we've just accepted will become sources of contention. Those who "lost" the referendum aren't going to just shut up. People will be alert to potential losses of human rights and lowering of standards, etc etc.

If I had to make a prediction, I think Labour (probably without Corbyn as leader) will come out on top in the long run and we're going to see a major realignment of political parties.

Anybody who thinks a quick decision will just make it all go away is deluded.

Whitewavemark2 Thu 05-Sept-19 15:55:03

Johnson’s good start?? Marxist Labour Party????

Hyperbole is quite a weakness of yours isn’t or day6

Day6 Thu 05-Sept-19 15:52:41

His haters were so put out by Johnson's good start as PM. It was inevitable that Remainer Parliamentarians would want to take the wind from his sails.

If Corbyn and his Marxist Labour Party is the only replacement, heaven help us all. We seem to have forgotten Corbyn favours enemies of the UK, is anti-Semitic and a Eurosceptic turned Europhile hypocrite.

If Johnson is bad, the alternative is a million times worse.

Whitewavemark2 Thu 05-Sept-19 15:44:47

grow how does that resolve Brexit?

growstuff Thu 05-Sept-19 15:32:19

I agree with you, Davidhs. I would be very surprised if Farage picks up any seats in the rebel Tories' constituencies. As I've written before, it's more likely that about half of them will go to the LibDems. If the BP and Tories both stand, it's likely to split the right wing vote and make the LibDems' job easier.

There's a possibility that the BP will pick up a handful of seats in the North and the East of England, probably at Labour's expense. However, it will almost certainly only be a handful. Labour has many rock solid majorities and it's difficult to see the BP taking many of them.

The most likely outcome of a GE is three major parties (Cons, Lab, LDs) and the SNP in Scotland. Some kind of coalition is almost certainly going to be inevitable. The BP might possible have enough seats to make them some kind of junior party (as the DUP now is), but it's difficult to see them winning a landslide.