The slippery slope - dictatorship anyone?

Yes, "In my view the only fair solution is to postpone for say, two years, meanwhile present a cross party statement on the full effects and consequences of leaving as far as can be determined, and offer N Ireland the choice of an independent vote to go it alone if they wish."

If only that had been done three years ago, everyone would know exactly where they stand and we wouldn't now be all at cross purposes with each other, hurling insults back and forth.

Democracy is the right to have and state opinions and to vote accordingly, but it also includes the duty of policy-makers and law-makers to keep the electorate fully and neutrally informed so that they can vote knowledgeably.

It also includes the duty of the electorate to read/listen to that information and use it to form decisions.

Every right carries an equal and opposite responsibility. Claiming the right means also taking on the responsibility that goes with it.

I must say that starbird's concluding suggestion (13.04) is surprisingly pragmatic but also encouraging... Not all Leavers are frothing at the mouth for no deal...

I don't think I've ever read a post with quite as many mistakes/misstatements/ untruths/misunderstandings as starbird's.

Did she read or was she told these 'facts'? Did she put them together herself in an attempt to bolster her argument? Is she really naive enough to believe such tosh?

Putting forward these spurious comments is irresponsible and dangerous whether it's on social media, contributing to phone-ins or in a social context!





'facts'

WOODHOUSE says Leavers are being 'harangued' - but I am afraid when people come up with 'Bercow not elected' and that 'he has manipulated the vote' - even if some of us are really trying to remain polite and respectful- there is only one answer, and that is that it is just pure nonsense.

How did the Speaker manipulate the vote? How could the Speaker manipulate the vote, everyone goes through the door for "Ayes" or "Nos" according to how they are voting, the Speaker would have to stand at one door and bar the way to stop anyone voting as they wished. And I don't recall there being any free vote either - quite the opposite, anyone who threatened not to vote as Johnson wanted them to was punished.

I've just seen that a date has been missed out of my post just above - it was posted as I was hurrying to get ready to go out. Sorry if it confused anyone. It should say "I heard and saw the Speaker say that he could stand down as early as Monday night if MPs vote for a snap general election. But if they do not, he told the Commons he will stand down from the post on 31st October" His actual words were "I have concluded that the least disruptive and most democratic action would be for me to stand down at the close of business on Thursday October 31st"

Mr Bercow has stated that he will stay as long as necessary to prevent Brexit.

Could you reference this, please? Otherwise, you have, at the very least been mislead. You do seem extremely uninformed re the Speaker, how he is chosen and his role and yet you throw these untruths in as if they are facts starbird

I don't understand why Leavers can be such strangers to the truth and then expect others to believe what they say.

Now it is odd that you say that, starbird Where did you hear it? I was watching the live broadcast from the House of Commons on 9th September, and I distinctly heard and saw the Speaker say that he could stand down as early as Monday night if MPs vote for a snap general election. But if they do not, he told the Commons he will stand down from the post
If you missed it, you can watch it yourself at www.youtube.com/watch?v=mD2Vp5Wsryw (it only takes 3 minutes 44 seconds)

Mr Bercow has stated that he will stay as long as necessary to prevent Brexit.
As far as the shutdown was concerned, parliament has always been only partially functional for the three weeks during the party conferences so it was only an extra two weeks.
Boris Johnson took legal advice about closing parliament and it is to his credit that he is taking the blame.
There have been closures in the past which meet the same criteria but it did not suit anyone to claim they were illegal.

Having said that I regret having got involved in this post and am bowing out. I usually avoid part politics as most people are more concerned to find fault with the opposition rather than work unitedly for what is best for the country - in this case it is democracy at stake - the people’s choice. We should have another referendum but if we did there would still be lots of false and misleading claims about the effect of leaving.
In my view the only fair solution is to postpone for say, two years, meanwhile present a cross party statement on the full effects and consequences of leaving as far as can be determined, and offer N Ireland the choice of an independent vote to go it alone if they wish.

The unelected Mr Bercow?

You mean Mr Bercow, MP, elected by voters in his constituency and by MPs in the House of Commons to be the Speaker? Perhaps you'd like to explain what you mean.

And also, what is this 'free vote' that Johnson is supposed to be 'engineering'? Was part of his 'engineering' this 'free vote' the attempted unlawful shutting down of Parliament for 5 weeks?

Or is he going for another referendum?

Whether a remainer or a leaver, the dictator all along has been the unelected Mr Bercow, who has singlehandedly manipulated the voting. I thought Boris Johnson was trying to engineer a free vote without Berco derailing it.

Don’t worry - if he is a dictator, he is a benevolent one! We have to get out of the E.U.

MY choice of words? Please enlighten me wherever you think I’ve been rude. I do always try to put my point forward in a respectful way.

You might just consider you choice of words UG if you do not believe (or intend) to attack.

Not me GGmk3.

I am on record, on one of these myriad threads of saying (must have been around March) that I was hoping TM’s WA got voted through as it was a COMPROMISE. I remember clearly saying that neither side was happy with it which, to my mind meant neither side had ‘won’.

Since then it turned out that the details of the deal showed it to be shabby in some areas and I did say later that no wonder the EU didn’t want to re-open it as they were delighted with it!

That said, whoever the Leaver is that MaizieD follows he sounds a sensible measured Leaver and I agree with him that now we have this messy dog’s dinner to sort out.

We are where we are.

Your Leaver chap sounds sensible MaizieD

So it's okay for a Brexiteer to suggest a step by step detachment but when I suggest that May should have seen the need for compromise you harangue me with insulting comments.

Varian: Not one of my extended family voted for brexit. Only one close friend did but she haz now changed her mind and would vote Remain in a People's Vote.
Do you really think she'd tell you she hadn't changed her mind? Knowing your extreme views she would be endlessly nagged to death!

Varian: I do know other folk who voted leave but I am not angry with them, only with the liars and charlatans who deceived them
That just shows what utter disrespect you have for leave voters to think they were all so stupid as to have been deceived.

Johnson reminds me of King Charles 1 who tried to overrule Parliament.

It's been common knowledge for quite a while.

Your Leaver chap sounds sensible MaizieD

Don’t know quite where to put this - it’s not worth ANOTHER Brexit thread but Cummings leaves at the end of October. He has surgery scheduled for early November and is not expected to return as an adviser afterwards.

I don’t know whether that will make things better or worse.

Just thought I’d share it as I wasn’t aware until just now.

I think the true colours of all MPs are shining through right now. I have always said I wouldn't trust any of them, and nothing I've seen recently has changed that opinion.

I don't know who it was that said (paraphrasing) the very fact that someone wants to be a politician should be enough to preclude them from ever becoming one.

Oh dear, my paragraphs have got transposed. The PS should have come last...

I’m not sure we will be allowed to Brexit after all.

It's not a question of not being 'allowed', Ug, it really, really isn't. It's a question of May going completely the wrong way about it and refusing to listen to people with experience and expertise.

I've been following a very committed Leaver for quite some time now. He has been anti-EU for decades. He had a carefully worked out plan for detaching the UK from the EU by degrees, over a period of years. I have no reason to believe that it wouldn't have worked; a number of 'experts' have commented that it looked as though it would have been promising. I think that had a plan like his been implemented it would have reconciled Remainers better to the shock and would have allowed businesses to have refocused and adapt over a period of time.

P.S The Leaver I've followed is incandescent about the way everything has turned out; he's an angry Leaver who I have absolute sympathy for.

As it was, May leapt in seemingly determined to immediately expunge anything that smacked of the EU completely from our lives; treated EU citizens as negotiating chips and completely disregarded the views of Remainers. Just inviting vigorous opposition...

there's. Sorry

If that is how you think UG theirs not much point in replying.