Why are "Leavers" so angry?

I voted to remain.
I am neither a drunk nor a scrounger.
I have worked hard for many years and was fortunate to receive my state pension at 60.
I always have and still do pay tax.
I guess I am not alone in that.
Do you think you might just have exaggerated a little with your sweeping generalisation?
Happy to accept a retraction!

If you take the time and trouble to look , you will see that ALL EU countries are coming into a common pension age within the same time frame as ours raises to 68. This was an EU directive. Got it now?

Yes, they do currently have a number of different retirement ages but they are all aiming at the same one as we are being pushed toward.

I am sorry Graces GRan but you need to check your facts. the British government changed the pension rules to come into line with the EU

You see, there are lots of rules you think were made by the Tories ( which they were ) but they were made because we were in the EU. Pensions is one of them

I think you are possibly wrong on this, abbey. Pensionable age varies hugely across the EU member states and I can find no directives which prevent member states from setting their own pensionable ages.

What I can find is directives on the conduct of pension fund investment and transferability of pensions between member states for EU citizens not living in their own country.

If you have any different information I'd be glad to look at it.

"how could we possibly be better off if we left the EU?" This was what occurred to me in the referendum and no Brexiteer gave me a rational answer. They said it'll be sorted and not to worry about it. The reason they gave me for voting leave was that there were too many immigrants, we are swamped, etc. Now, these were all women in different groups I'm in, in the U3A mostly. Nearly all were professionals, highly educated and aged between 68-94. Out of 50 of them only a handful of us voted remain. None of them could given us any information as to what impact Brexit would have on the economy or what the economy would look like or how we'd get there. I was so extremely surprised that they didn't give a damn about the economy to ask the very basic questions it begged some answers for before voting one way or the other. Since then, I've become very, very, very disappointed with such highly educated professionals and almost all the politicians who failed to address this issue well before and after the referendum. They should have known better before they put it to people. Now I expect them all to put their hands up and say they made a grave mistake by not studying the pros and cons of Brexit and not debating it in the H of P before considering to put it to people. They should have been extremely well informed about the consequences and made the public aware of them too. As it happened, neither they nor the people possessed enough information to make an informed decision. Now so many politician know and they are trying their damnedest to stop this possible national suicide. Who says that anyone should carry out a plausible or bad decision just because they made it!? We do change our minds if we find out our decision wasn't right in our daily lives, no? We're human after all and allowed to make mistakes and learn from them if we can't rectify them. Also the majority isn't always right and any democrat knows that. That's why they are able to be open enough to change their thoughts and ways once new or better information lands in their hands. I'm still waiting to hear "how could we possibly be better off if we left the EU?" from all the Brexiteers. I'm open enough to rational answers to this question to become a Brexiteer.

No abbey I wouldn't and I'm one of the first WASPI women to be affected. There was absolutely no argument that the pension ages for men and women should have been equalised. Why shouldn't they be equal?

I wasnt talking about equality. I am pretty tired of this herring coming up. I too am one of those waspi women who has been caught by my pension age being moved three times . I am talking about the raising of pension ages from 65 to 66 and then 67 and 68 in close succession. That was the EU sticking its finger in.

Who is Daisy. Nice name; it was my grandmother's middle name.

You are wrong abbey.

This quote is from an official Works and Pensions document:

8 Equality in State Pension Age, Cm 2420, December 1993 and HL Deb, 24 January 1995, col. 977. There is a misconception that state pension age equalisation was required under European law. In fact, there was a specific derogation for state pensions in Council Directive (EEC) 79/7 on the progressive implementation of the principle of equal treatment for men and women in matters of social security.

You keep talking about rights Maizie - what are those "rights" you so desperately want to sell your soul to keep?

You havent said what they are. You just keep saying how you will be robbed of them.

Please Daisy, get an education. In the times of the ancient Greeks more than 60% of the population were slaves. Most of the " free population" were in fact little better off as they were classed as " Non Persons". You had to be elite to be part of the democratic process. But that has been the case for most of history.

Britain was one of the first countries to move from that model.

However I dont know why I am bothering because if you were to read your Greek you would know exactly how the EU would like to treat you in its new world "democracy" where no one votes for anything, leaders are appointed , not elected and any votes are a rubber stamp.

Talk about turkeys voting for Christmas? Clearly remainers want to live in the world of elites and serfs again anyway. Thats the model the EU is moving to and the one you seem to want.

In what way is the EU restrictive for your business if you were trading outside it?

I have answered this. Clearly you didnt bother reading it.
I am not going to keep on.

Thanks growstuff

I only fell for it because I genuinely didn’t know Wikipedia could be hacked.

Who else knows this? Is it just me showing my ignorance here?

Far more businesses suffer under the EU than are doing well. Big business does well. Smaller ones do not. In the end it comes down to who is going to employ those who are not the business makers?

Out in the big world there are many opportunities. In the little EU world - comparatively - there is no real future.

I too could weep for all the nasty things that the EU have done to me personally across the last 40 years of my life. I havent found anything yet that the EU has done for me that was good. The ways it has impacted on me has been negative.

I looked at the potential for the future and realised that that any future in the EU was never going to be good. What are our children going to do in an EU which has too much surpluses and little need of them?

I do not think you have fully understood what the EU is really about. You certainly havent seen the side I have clearly.

^ The EU had nothing to offer me or my business.^

Well, that's fair enough, abbey but why should your choice be imposed on businesses that thrive on trade within the EU and whose owners and employees are losing their livelihoods as a result of the Leave vote?

In what way is the EU restrictive for your business if you were trading outside it?

I am sorry Graces GRan but you need to check your facts. the British government changed the pension rules to come into line with the EU .

You see, there are lots of rules you think were made by the Tories ( which they were ) but they were made because we were in the EU. Pensions is one of them

On a different note - vacuum cleaners. Restrictions on the power of vacuum cleaner motors were EU regs written into British law. Of course you might want to blame the great Saint Thunberg .

I could list tons of EU regs written into British law. You never realise how extensive the dictats have been .

One I came up against when I was trying to expand my business was that I was not allowed to buy from the cheapest supplier who could provide my quality spec because the EU said I had to buy from their preferred buyer ( one they had a "deal" with) . That meant I couldnt be competitive in the market place with my sale price.

growstuff - different business models have different needs. I was trying to work in markets outside of the EU - that was where the growth was. The EU had nothing to offer me or my business.

The EU are not good for all kinds of business. They are restrictive.

Changes in pensions is not an EU regulation it is a Tory party policy Abbey. Where, oh where did you get the idea it was. The EU has nothing to do with this. Have you ever checked whether the things you don't like a actually had anything to do with the EU?

I could weep, really I could. You are taking away so much that is good based on false knowledge.

Joelsnan

I've heard all of that before but, in the face of 'leaders' who are determined to do away with much of it how do you propose to ensure that such rights are retained?

I am not sure why you want me to answer Jura because I have never made a comment about wanting to abolish or expecting any existing rules of the EU to be abolished on Brexit.

I see it more as an opportunity to make deals outside of the EU restrictions - that means being competitive and making money in my business book...... but I say again, I am not having this conversation with you. I have never had it with you. You must be thinking of someone else.

I have many reasons for wanting to leave the EU ..... but you havent touched on any of them really yet. Just clipped one there with restrictive business rules and practices though and the way in which those rules can quickly asset strip a business and stop it being profitable.

abbey I have a friend with a multi-million pound business, which imports/exports with the EU as well as trading with EU customers and it's not what she says. That's why she's relocated to Italy.

Actually, even the ancient Greeks ( the first democrats) acknowledged that those ticks in boxes ( or in their case balls in a jar) were the foundation of all democracy and needed to be honoured, even if they did not like it.

Nothing particularly perfect about ancient Greek democracy, abbey where women and slaves weren't allowed any part in decision making. Our concept of democracy has moved on a great deal since then to be more inclusive and more embracing of minority views.

What was appropriate for small populations in city states is not appropriate for entire countries comprising millions of people.

No abbey I wouldn't and I'm one of the first WASPI women to be affected. There was absolutely no argument that the pension ages for men and women should have been equalised. Why shouldn't they be equal?

MaizieD
I think you will find that EU employment legislation was mainly derived from UK employment law that was embedded as statute.
You will also find that UK far exceeds the minimum requirements for most benefits.
You must know that it was British unions that fought for these benefits. That it was potentially your and my grand or great grandparents who fought for these rights.
Are we now so weak and snowflakey that we could not either use the UK electoral system or other to retain or improve these conditions?

I ran a business for a number of year before I decided to sell it on. It was a moderately successful business but not wildly making money or anything.

The main reason I gave it up was because of the number of regulations and restrictive practices that iminged on my making more progress and growing my business. It simply was not worth the long hours and additional taxes I had to pay to the EU in order to trade with customers outside the EU.

As for customers inside the EU, well they were few and again, there were many rules which stopped me competing with EU counterparts. It was a cartel. Prices were fixed by the EU .

I believe in free trade and free competiton and market forces. The EU believes in some kind of EUtopia where everyone is kept the same.

Try looking at Paula Sherriff's Wiki profile now Urmstongran and look at the edit history. It was hacked and the hack has now been deleted. Fake news and you fell for it.