Why are "Leavers" so angry?

What Quaker business ethic? The Quakers were all for making money.

Sorry! I didn't mean to mislead. I know that there are some very well paid and wealthy people in Switzerland.

Would that the Quaker business ethic be applied within the EU.
Yes, the UK too.
However sadly university business schools appear to teach profit over people.

growstuff: 'A high wage economy, such as Switzerland or Norway, is all very well, but Switzerland has a very high number of foreign workers to do menial work - as do most of the countries in the Middle East.'

Switzerland does have high wages, but also very high cost. One of the things that is always 'shocks' those who come to work here for said 'High wages'. And yes, Switzerland does have a much higher % of foreigners than UK- and even a large % of those Swiss citizens are second, third generation Italians, Spanish, Portuguese, etc.

I was looking at the class list for my 'god-daughter' (anglo/Pakistani/Swiss) - and out of 19 (yes, a high class size for here!) - there were two Swiss names.

Where I do object- is that Switzerland has a very large proportion of immigrants, some call themselves expats, who certainly DO NOT do 'menial work'. They are often in the top echelons, Senior Doctors, GPs, Senior Lecturers and researchers, senior managers and CEOs of very large companies- and everthing in between.

Ahh! Such fond memories of the Corn Laws, the abolition of which meant that agriculture became less profitable, but factory workers could buy cheap bread. In the long run, abolition incentivised farmers to become more efficient and use more machinery, which meant that fewer agricultural workers were needed.

Managing an economy and balancing the needs of various groups isn't simple.

The history of Quaker businesses is really interesting on this subject.

Thank you MaizieD another great post.
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I probably am naive. I always paid my dues to ‘Unison’ when I worked for 30+ years full time at our local district hospital. I was asked at one time to be a union rep.

I do realise there are inequalities regarding this whole issue.

The only way to eat an elephant is by taking small bites.

My point being, small businesses ought to pay a proper going rate.

I agree with you, too, Ug but I think, with respect, that you are being hopelessly naive. History tells us that most (not all) employers will pay as little as they can get away with. That was one of the reasons that drove the formation of Trades Unions.

There has always been a tension between the perceived inflationary effects of wage increases, and the effects on profits, and the belief that people should be treated decently and be financially recognised for their part in producing 'wealth'. If you started to look for it you could find reams on the debate from both points of view, dating back over at least the last three centuries... Debate in which the employers plump for low wages and the workers for higher ones...

And this is what we are up against ...

If this can be proved.

“Sources said No 10 officials received intelligence that MPs, including former Cabinet Minister Oliver Letwin, had received help drafting the Benn Bill from members of the French Government and the European Union.

Rebel MPs have drawn up plans for a second Act which would allow Commons Speaker John Bercow to bypass the Prime Minister if he cannot strike a deal to leave the EU on October 31.

The new law would allow Mr Bercow to personally ask Brussels for a further delay on behalf of the Commons.”

Sheesh!

Low wages for workers also means keeping the cost of living down - as long as profits are kept reasonable.

A high wage economy, such as Switzerland or Norway, is all very well, but Switzerland has a very high number of foreign workers to do menial work - as do most of the countries in the Middle East.

It's the stuff people feed to their tomatoes and other plants. I have no objection to encouraging living matter to thrive.

Corbyn is against the EU because it doesn't tally with his anti capitalist rhetoric.

Read the link WOODMOUSE posted for an analysis at local level of low-paid, low-skilled work. I promise you it's interesting and informative (whether or not you support leaving or remaining).

Whatever happens, this country needs a proper strategy for de-industrialised areas and low wages.

Oops, sorry it’s growstuff. Is there even a growmore?

Me too lemongrove

Eh? How do you work that I'm averse to change? Baffling!

Gosh growmore that’s a first - us agreeing on something!! Who’d have thought it?
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Exactly Urmston....which is why Corbyn was always against the EU, he knew it brought down wages for workers.
Possibly the only thing I agree with Corbyn on.

That’s disingenuous MaizieD It was just a brilliant meme (in its original sense) to get people stirred up with anti-EU feelings and you know it.

There IS evidence out there to back up claims that some workers became disenfranchised when trying to compete against low paid immigrant workers. The immigrants were happy to earn ‘decent’ money (still low paid but better than they were able to earn ‘at home’ in the EU. Some house shared to split the cost of accommodation, converted pounds sterling into euros (the exchange rate being good so they made even more money in the transactions) to send back to their families.

My point being, small businesses ought to pay a proper going rate. One that can finance a decent living wage for those lads and lassies who already live here. They have overheads that the EU migrants do not. How can they be expected to survive on paltry wages?

And then we wonder why there are food banks!

It has to stop. We as a country ought to be mindful of what we deem acceptable practice in business.

Rant over.

If the Australian points system was introduced here we could have all the immigration we need, chosen from people worldwide, but chosen being the appropriate word.

growstuff
So you are averse to change?
Sometime change is scary, but there is no progress without change.

I live in one of the areas which has been promised a new/upgraded hospital. Are you saying that areas such as mine won't get the money after all?

For once, I agree with Urmstongran. I think it's shocking too, but I guess the employers making the profits vote Conservative.

I know somebody who is a community nurse in Fenland. Some of her patients, now in their 80s or 90s, came from countries such as Greece (before the EU). They were trafficked by unscrupulous agencies/employers, made to live in communal dormitories and worked extremely long hours in the fields or doing care work. Their passports were often confiscated.

A blind eye was turned because the employers were making a nice profit and people were buying their vegetables cheaply.

jura2
With all the Europeans apparently leaving in droves, apart from replacing decrepit ones will they actually be needed.
With regard to staffing, again if we have fewer people here the need for staff will reduce too.
Do you remember when hospitals were staffed by locals with some from the West Indies and India. When I was training we had student nurses from Malaysia. Some went home on completion, some married and stayed.
Don't forget there is a big wide world outside the EU where, believe it or not medical and nursing staff are trained, many with their first language being English. But, I am sure if EU medical staff still want to work here because and despite everything the salaries and benefits are, on the whole, better here I have no doubt they will be welcomed.

Even if we do leave, our system will be changed forever, especially if Johnson gets his way.