Pointless exercise and waste of money

Hi, grannygranby, Interesting that The Guardian reported yesterday that, in his evidence to a Select Committee, Ollie Robbins said that it wouldn't have made much difference if the problem of the shared border had been raised before the referendum. The British side assumed that the GFA issue would be about the movement of people. It turned out that the EU/ Ireland were concerned about the movement of goods.

In other words, we had to enter into negotiations with the EU before their concerns became clear. Negotiation is a two-way exercise. You can't predict what the other side will see as a priority.

Just saying

Total impasse. GE won't solve it but nor at this point will another Referendum. Fully agree that 'talking about it for 3 years' is absurd - whole trouble was that TM wouldn't allow anyone to talk about it for a full 18 months. I think there are some strong Leave arguments re the imperfections of the EU, but most strong Leave thinkers now realise the enormous and damaging downside.

Nothing will sort out leaving except maybe another referendum. An election, well a referendum would have been far better.

Tactical voting will be a necessity in this election, but I agree Gonegirl, a second referendum now would be preferable and, I feel, more honest.

I voted Leave and would do so again

I have always voted, actually, I used to think quite highly, well not badly, of our system of Parliament

but with this shambles,,, (shaking head) oh dear,, I just don`t know what or who to vote for now

I fear for our country, cos I really, really do think that Parliament, MP`s, the whole system has become corrupted.

Peonyrose, petra, Johnson broke and manipulated the law when he prorogued Parliament and chose not to sign his letter to the EU requesting an extension. The law is the law is the law. It protects us all and prevents unscrupulous leaders from dragging us towards a dictatorship. We undermine the law at our peril.

The latest independent research suggests the country will be £70 billion per year worse off after Brexit. I wonder how catchy that'd look on the side of a bus?

I think there should be a promise of a second General Election once immediately Brexit is out of the way. That way the tactical voters could vote for the party they really believe in.

But a second referendum should be tried now. Makes more sense than this tactical/trickery stuff.

yes Callistemon, careless of me. and Gonegirl 2nd referendum? I don't think there is a quick fix. Feelings are raw and often silly. If there was a question like 'just get it over with' it would win. Bonkers. Leavers are very fired up and emotional - are they just making the most noise? I think the trouble is there is no charismatic Remainer to carry people through. They are all a bit dry, as sensible as they are, and every vote is equal however informed or ill informed. Instinctively I think yes another referendum but my brain says it will do little good and probably will be as close as last time. I do feel that a promise of a referendum in six months might be better - but there is no-one going for that and will it have calmed down? What do you think?

Whitewavemark2
Petra, did you actually read the OP

Maybe you should go back and read it again. Nowhere did she suggest that lawyers are/will break the law. What she said was: by highly trained lawyers and such who manipulate the law The clue is in the word manipulate

May I just point out that it was David Davis who was the Brexit negotiator and not David Davies, also an MP

WW2 I doubt peonyrose is suggesting that lawyers break the law, but that they can be extremely clever in using loopholes.

I would vote in a second referendum. But I am not going along with this General Election because it's just furthering parliament's ridiculous antics.

GrannyGranby, do you think we should be having a second referendum rather than a General Election?

Yep, this election won't resolve the B problem and certainly not the Irish border problem. I 'm with NotSpaghetti and grannygranby, not that it takes us any further. Total mess, started by Cameron attempting to lion tame the right wing of his party.

Unfortunately an election will NOT sort out the UK leaving the EU.
And it will not sort out the Irish border problem.

Our EU partners wanted the Irish border to be sorted first before any other negotiations- but we "cleverly" persuaded them we would get on with sorting it out alongside negotiations. Ridiculously they believed us.
What a mess we are in.
Total disaster.
And ALL of our own making.

peonyrose

Your argument is weird.

Are you suggesting that lawyers break the law?

petra did you actually read the OP?

An election will solve nothing, any party with a secure majority is a pipe dream it will merely return us to Square 1.

Peonyrose
Totally agree.

btw, said footage is no longer available.

grannygranby, what an articulate and interesting summing up of the almighty mess we are in.

I distinctly recall seeing footage of BJ and others sort of staggering about the day after the referendum. They looked punch drunk and fuddled. Ill conceived and not planned as you say. I am convinced Ireland was an afterthought.

that was in reply to Peony Rose not growstuff...I just took a while to write it! and like growstuff I wonder what peonyrose is going on about.

If politicians had been thinking straight, they should have raised the problem of the shared border on the island of Ireland years ago and every time a right-wing idealogue bullied for a referendum. They should have said: How will the border between the Republic of Ireland (EU) and Northern Ireland (UK) work for both sides? and only when a solution was found should a referendum have been allowed.

It would have helped if the IN campaign had put forward the strengths and benefits of being in the EU instead of only warning of the disastrous consequences of coming out. Allowing Leave campaign shout Project Fear - Leave are good at targeting the emotions of people.

The referendum campaign was lazy and not thought through - what would happen if the vote was very close? Should there be a mandatory two thirds majority for it to carry? Like most refendums. Was it advisory? Then why did the leaflets not point that out clearly? Nigel Farage expecting to lose had already stated what a fuss they were going to make if it was within 5% difference.

And all this talk about 3 and a half years of arguing - rubbish. Two years was mandatory and David Davies used to turn up to the EU grinning like a silly cat and never showing any evidence of any paperwork - or work. Utter silly arrogance; all he could repetitively utter was that Germans wanting to sell their cars.

Sensible responsible politicians of both parties on both sides who genuinely are in politics to serve have at last put their foot down. They want answers to questions that were never properly asked or dealt with. And because Corbyn campaigned limply to Remain; believing that the EU would prevent his brand of Socialism that he thought Labour and the UK could achieve alone....we are stuck in this muddle. But really not to understand the muddle would be very stupid indeed.

Whether Boris Johnson's charisma will get him through and fool more of the people we don't know. Cummings his SPAD has emotionally targeted the bite-sized 'democratic' appeal to the populace' how they are being disrepected and it has been swallowed wholw. He, ironically, loathes the EU because of their democratic bureaucracy, on insisting that all 28 nations states have their view respected. And thats what bugs them; no direct power. Add to that the fury of the big Leave backers...like Banks and Tice and powerful investors like Rees-Moggs whose profits go to off shore tax evading havens...that will be exposed and prevented by the EU in January... What they have in common, like Farage of course is that there is a power above them to curb their bad practices.

This is a very very difficult situation and its hard to see how a General Election will technically help. But it will distract and concentrate the minds of some. It's a very important battle which we should all take seriously.

Please could you explain what exactly you're going on about.