Is our criminal justice system working?

The broader issues, though, is to try and help people who have drug/addiction problems, and hopefully reduce these incidents that way.

Oh GGmk3 you are always so dismissive of anything I post!

You brought up Norway.

I put forward a viewpoint. Was it the Albanian mafia that upset you?

Actually Urmstongram, it was probably the immigrants do the crime...that's actually fake news from Neo-Nazis. Hitler did the same thing about Jews. Crime in Norway has actually been going down except for hate crimes which unwittingly or maliciously, you're enabling. I hope it's the former.

I’m truly sorry and apologise if my post was seen that way.

In my cackhanded style I was trying to illustrate (a) the differences in population between Norway & the U.K. (huge) and (b) that drug consumption fuels crime and organised gangs move in.

Oh dear.

Fair enough. One thing I do know that's a problem with crime in Norway is Swedes nipping over the border and committing crimes. Sweden has a much higher crime rate than Norway. Neo-Nazis have quite effectively made people think 'immigrants' as opposed to 'Swedes'.

I have a friend who lives in Norway so I'm familiar with current affairs stuff from there. She stays with me when she's in the UK. She's an immigrant (South Korea) and is a translator. Quite a niche job, translating Norwegian into Korean. She does interpreting too (they sound the same but have very different skill sets).

I agree with the point that it's a multi layered problem. For example, Sure Start was introduced (thanks Blair government) because the research is irrefutable. Invest in early years and there will be less problems with the children who benefit. Less crime, drug use, mental health problems. The centres worked with 'hard to reach' parents in deprived areas. David Cameron started closing them because he said, they were only used by families like his own who didn't need the support (and could afford to pay for it). I do wish he'd come to Oswaltwistle, Burnley, Blackburn etc where the number of families in need no doubt exceeded the area he lived in.

Probation was privatised. It's in the process of being taken back into public ownership because it failed in a big way. I don't understand why anyone would believe profit should be made from prisons or any other part of the criminal justice system.

Secure Units, like the ones where serious young offenders are held could be viewed by some as 'too soft'. Young people are given education, introduced to sports and hobbies, they have 1 - 1 support from a key worker. So young people who have committed serious offences, often including significant violence are cared for, rather than simply locked up and fed gruel. Often, by the time young people get into such establishments there is no guarantee their lives can be turned round. But, for some, they are.
We need to invest in our children, their parents, in the criminal justice system and the public services decimated by austerity.

The parents of troubled youngsters were not brought up under this Tory government, were they failed by their parents ?

Prisons can be reformed so they actually discourage repeat offending. The first principle for reformation of prisons is the criminal must be respected as a fellow human being.

For prisons to teach criminals to be good people prisons must stop aiming to be being punitive and instead aim for teaching the criminal to abide by laws.

Clearly there are some criminals who cannot learn. Other criminals need medical treatment for mental illness or drug addiction.

Prisons must be hygienic and provide a decent living space for every criminal.

Only by adopting this longer term , more energetic , strategy can the criminal justice system be cost effective.

Alexa I could not agree more than I do with your first sentence in your 9.36 post.

This table is interesting:

sfbayview.com/2016/09/george-jackson-university-supports-the-historic-sept-9-strike-against-prison-slavery/incarceration-rates-per-100000-for-list-of-countries/

It would seem to indicate that countries who put behaviour modification before punishment have a lower incidence of recidivism. I know that Finland ( the lowest in this table) has a small population, and perhaps more research is needed to determine whether this is a factor. The US and The Russian Federation, at the top, are much larger.

Iam64 - the Surestart experiment was pulled just as it started to work properly. It did take a few years to bed in but the assessment of it came really early. I was actually involved in an early trial and did an early evaluation of its successes and failings.

Like most things, it takes a while to become adopted and accepted. Many families who were struggling in “my patch” were deeply suspicious at first. They needed to see that it wasn’t just another way to display their failings to social care agencies.

I think the way support works now (Surestart light??) means that those more capable parents don’t get to mix with the struggling ones. In “my day” I can think of two unlikely friendships developed through Surestart which definitely had a positive effect on the family life of the less privileged family. These more subtle changes are harder to measure.

I was really sceptical when the Surestart came in, and like anything new with sudden funding, they recruited staff super quickly and not all were as brilliant as they should have been, however, I was most definitely won round. I saw so many good results.

So yes, let’s start with the new families, empower, educate and offer real help and support. This way we may not need to keep expanding prisons in the future and have less misery and dissatisfaction and more happiness and fulfilment.

Criminal justice should be about rehabilitation of criminals and depriving criminals of their freedom if they are a danger to society. Prison is a brutal environment and understaffed. Is it working - not if the repeat offending is anything to go by and over crowded prisons. Probation services are stretched and understaffed. Then there is the question of causes of crime. Disaffected people, unfair society, poor education, unequal opportunities mental health. As well as families who are career criminals, organised crime, people traffickers who are only interested in making money. It's a complex issue, but we need policing resources to get these minorities off our streets and prison services that don't exacerbate the criminal thinking. I don't know what the answer is

If prison was a deterrent why is the prison population rising year on year, if prison is so tough why would they want to reoffend. Why are prisons regarded as a university of crime, or if you’re not an addict when you go in you will be when you leave.

Because prisons are too loosely supervised and far too soft AND the police are so badly funded that enforcing laws are impossible making it easy to get away with crime of all sorts.

That’s not to say rehabilitation should not be done but the regime should be far tougher, no drugs no phones no TVs just hard work

I’m not sure even about ‘rehabilitation’. Sorry. It sounds humane and well intentioned but if it was working - why are our prisons ever more over populated?

It isn't working because the money has been cut over the last 10 years and it isn't being done. Surely you know this before you make the sweeping statements you do Urmstongran?

Davidhs you say prisons are far too soft. Have you worked in one or visited someone in prison?

No, sorry GGmk3 I just do not believe it’s all down to finances. Just like the NHS - it’s no good throwing money at a service that needs a new way of doing things.

We read newspapers momb and watch documentaries on the television - the most illuminating of which are undercover exposes.

I worked in Strangeways in Manchester. They are harsh awful places to be. The number of men there with learning difficulties, mental illness, addiction problems, lack of any family support and very little self esteem made me want to weep. I saw a lad come into prison who had no-one to tell he was coming into prison. No-one cared.

mumofmadboys I know you are right. I can think of at least a dozen people I've worked to support who could not get to classes because no one was available to walk them there. This is a funding issue.
How can any prison begin rehabilitation if they can barely function through staff/funding cuts?
Of course recidivism will be high! Almost NOTHING is being done for our prisoners - because once locked up, no one cares.

I have worked in the resettlement of ex-offenders and have visited prisons prior to their release. I have wept over the injustices and frustrations with the system. If no one cares about you, basically you are stuffed.

No, sorry GGmk3 I just do not believe it’s all down to finances. Just like the NHS - it’s no good throwing money at a service that needs a new way of doing things.

No point in being sorry UG, if that's what you believe, that's what you believe but I can't make any sense of it.

I think everyone on here that you are disagreeing with is saying exactly what you have just posted. There is no sense in continuing with the "lock 'em up and throw away the key type of mentality" - it isn't working. Yes, let's put money into a new way of doing things. We do not have a higher percentage of intrinsically bad people than any other country, big or small, so let's find out why they have better outcomes and invest in the way they go about getting them. Rather like seeding any new system the costs will eventually go down again - and so will the recidivism, etc.

... the most illuminating of which are undercover exposes.

So why are these so interesting. Because they happen so infrequently!

Learning difficulties, mental illness, addiction.

I went to an ordinary Secondary Modern School in a rural town there were all abilities nobody had a learning difficulty or mentally ill label, and no drugs. We were streamed according to our ability and teachers did their best with whichever class they had and I do know every school leaver went into work.

Discipline was good, in school and outside because there was about 8 police stationed in the town and more in surrounding villages. The police knew exactly who was doing what and apart from the odd pub fight and domestic incidents it was well ordered. If you did something wrong there was a high chance of getting caught. Now there is one car covering half the county, at night, drugs and thieving is rife, if it’s not set in concrete it will get stolen.

David, there would have been youngsters with learning difficulties, but they would not have attended a mainstream school. Some would not have attended any school at all, their parents preferring to keep them at home. You are right about police numbers- they have been severely cut over the last few years.

Of course there were, quite a few dyslexics for a start, many of them did well after school there were/are plenty of manual jobs they can do without particular academic skills but now we put a label on them and get migrant workers to do the work. They might have been a brick layer or a forklift driver or a cleaner but they had work and respect.

Lock em up and throw away the key. ?

You’re joking, with good behavior they only serve 40% of any sentence