Is our criminal justice system working?

Okay. I understand the need for more money.

But the state cannot be the parent to all of society’s maladjusted children who end up in prison. Yes it’s heartbreaking but that’s the reality.

And how come a 17y old nowadays ends up illiterate? Beggars belief with Ofsted, SENCO, teaching assistants, volunteers who go into schools to assist, one to one in specialist units.

In some ways surely you liberals have got to admit resources are not the only answer here.

I actually work in criminal justice and it's my opinion that the system is shattered not broken!
Local police forces are low in funding and officer's... In my local area its not unusual for 2/3 officers to cover a shift. If an incident occurs and an officer is involved, well the situation is obvious really.
Local courts have been closed so victims and witnesses travel a long distance, trials are listed as 'floaters' - this means that you basically sit and wait for a free courtroom and this can last days.
People aren't updated...crucial if you're a victim of domestic abuse and the perpetrator is on bail but nobody has told you.
Over 94% of cases are heard in the magistrates court..by people not legally trained and if anyone doubts how badly this can be, please read the Secret Barrister. It's one of the most accurate assessments of what's going on.
I've worked for nearly 20 years in this area and I don't think it's ever been this bad..

I'm not sure when you are talking about Davidhs but I doubt very much, in the days of Grammar Schools and Secondary Moderns, that anyone was tested for dyslexia; I had never heard of it until I was dealing with the very familiar issues my daughter had and by then we had Comprehensives across the country, with a few exceptions. Because it is recognised and because there is help, although expensive at times, she is now a qualified teacher with a first degree and a Masters. According to your limited view of success it would have been okay for her to end up with "manual" work. That is surely not just a waste for her but also for a country that needs workers with very different skills.

It is harder educate for the future, than it would be to educate for the past but that surely shouldn't mean we stop trying.

Individuals can be helped of course but the success of your example only replaced another student that went to university At the end of the day nearly half of graduates are not doing graduate work. So spending large amounts of resources are wasted when there is such an over supply of graduates.

I absolutely agreed with you Iam64.

When I was doing my adult literacy teacher training, I met several people who taught in prisons. They said people who make remarks about "cushy" conditions and "holiday camps" are very unlikely to have ever visited a prison because those remarks bear no relation whatsoever to the reality of most prisoners' lives.

My feeling is that if you treat people like worthless pieces of rubbish, that is the way they will behave. Except for serious crimes, I believe that sending people to prison has an adverse effect on their chances of changing their behaviour - they lose their family, their friends and their jobs and may well mix with and become reliant on the most dangerous and anti-social prisoners.

There are significant numbers of people in prison who are: ex-soldiers, have spent their childhood in care, have mental health or addiction issues - and many who are, to all intents and purposes, illiterate. These are the issues that should be addressed, in the hope that they will not become "old lags", in and out of prison for the rest of their lives.

In my view, going to prison - being locked in a cell for many hours a day, being separated from family and friends, having no freedom of choice in anything you do, is sufficient punishment. I don't think many people will be advocating luxury for inmates but to deprive them of virtually everything that most people take for granted - with no meaningful resources made available to address deficiencies in literacy, numeracy and general employability - is not going to aid rehabilitation or produce better human beings.

I agree with your whole post Eloethan ??????

Individuals can be helped of course but the success of your example only replaced another student that went to university.

What does that mean DavidHS. It makes no sense. My daughter did not go to University at a time when only 10% went. How could she be "replacing" someone else?

At the end of the day nearly half of graduates are not doing graduate work. So spending large amounts of resources are wasted when there is such an over supply of graduates.

By this theory we should not have taught our "servants and our daughter's to read" as those who could receive education once thought. It's verging on a luddite way of thinking to hold back progress because each and every person doesn't immediately benefit from it.

I think we have taken this far enough off topic which is unfair to those discussing the OP. My fault and my apologies.

I know it will sound naive but I think basically we need 'to love people into wholeness'. Prisoners have invariably had deprived lives with few chances to succeed. We need to find what their skills are and boost their self esteem , value them as people and do what we can to support them into independent living and employment. Every person is of value.

Thanks to those posting who have direct experience, as I do, of working in prisons and family centres for example. NotSpaghetti, I'm familiar with many Sure Start Centres. One in a very deprived area, that was doing good work with hard to reach families was closed and turned into a centre for young offenders. Absolute madness - the work it was doing was with offenders, addicts, dependent drinkers, people with learning issues who just happened to also be parents. They were dismissed as needing less support than young offenders. How can this be

We do have a couple of prisons where inmates go out to work. A friend was governor in one such prison. It was extremely rare for a man not to return at the end of his working day, or to abuse the freedom he was given. Often when we were walking in the city she lived in, we'd hear "Miss, Miss " and some man would run over to tell her how he was, how his children were. It's the human thing isn't it. Treat most people with respect and dignity and they return it.

Some offenders post such a risk to society, to people, that they need long sentences and then life supervision with a swift return if they transgress. As others have said, the majority of the prison population have significant m.h., learning, addiction difficulties.

Something that no one has mentioned yet, is that many of those poor souls would previously have been incarcerated in long stay hospitals. They wouldn't have had the opportunity to be introduced to drugs/alcohol. They wouldn't have been able to have children and be supported to care for them in the community. We're living with all kinds of issues that didn't happen when we were young. We live in a more challenging, complex society and some people struggle more than others. Those of us who have worked in this type of area could give many heart breaking examples of people who end up in prison. For many, a health visitor could have predicted this when they were under five, as a direct result of their experiences in their formative years. We neglect those in need at our peril - that's one of the reasons our cities are full of men and women off their faces on substances, sleeping in shop doorways.

Apologies for a long rant. I should have edited it.

It is really interesting to get first hand reporting Iam but you will know that those who will take that on board already realise this system doesn't work. Not because having a tv in the cell you are locked in for 23 hours is being soft on people but because we are doing nothing to nurture the good, self sufficient person where possible.

No. Iam64, you shouldn't have edited it. I think what you said was very heartfelt and articulate.

Those in prison that have learning difficulties are there because the have broken the law not just once but are in a great many cases repeat offenders and it has nothing to do with being in a deprived area. Before prison they have never learned discipline and respect for others they have never had good parenting, they dont respect teachers or the police to make matters worse laws are not enforced because the police are so stretched.

The best way to help all children is to teach good behavior and obeying the rules, parents that do not bring their children up to respect others should themselves be sanctioned, it’s ridiculous that children as young as 5 are suspended because they are uncontrollable. There are always going to be deprived areas in income terms.
That does not mean that they should be high crime areas, there may well be a high proportion unemployed or benefit claimants, they are the areas where the are plenty of adults to help young people, they should be the best kept tidiest areas all it needs is backup from government to do it.

Those on benefits have the right to payments, where is the responsibility to use your time constructively instead of idling, the children should be the best behaved in the tidiest streets. The biggest crime is to neglect those areas that is why the prisons are full to bursting point, instead of building more prisons it would be far cheaper to help deprive areas and that includes behavior of adults as well as children.

That’s my rant and no apologies making excused for those with learning difficulties in prison helps nobody they broke the law, go back to the roots of lawlessness and fix that.

Is it true that most prisoners are victims ?

I've come to this thread a bit late, I've been away for a few days, so apologies.

I can only agree with those who feel that if people are coming out of prison worse than when they went in, prison doesn't work.

Saying that, I realize that there are those who must be kept out of society for the protection of others. But in the main, those in prison are there because the authorities simply don't know what else to do with them.

We need to look to other countries where the rates of recidivism are low and see what best practice can be implemented here.

Let's learn lessons, for once!

The best way to help all children is to teach good behavior and obeying the rules, ...

How about teaching pulling your forelock and doffing your cap too? These ideas are like something out of the Victorian era when we knew no better. Surely our education has taken all of us further forward than this.

Davidhs, your experience of law enforcement was in the good old days where there was an actual community.

Crime has several causes. White working class boys such as yourself are not living in villages or small communities any more. When as commonly happens they can't get jobs or in some cases don't even have caring families they gang up together to satisfy human need for community.

It takes a village to bring up a child is true. Our whole society needs to be sorted. A good beginning would be to make prisons suited to rehabilitation. Yes, money needs to be spent on such prisons. Compare that sort of money with the cost to society of criminality!

I have talked to people who worked in prisons. The system inside does appear too soft! I understand that a lot of prisoners come from underprivileged backgrounds but, unless conditions inside are harsh they lose liberty but gain a lot by being looked after. If life in prison were unpleasant more people would not want to go back.

Many years ago, but I knew the girlfriend of a chap doing his third time. He said it wasn't bad but a bit boring as he had read all the available books! This was said by a burglar. I know what it is to be burgled and would welcome a much tougher time being given to the little ratbags who burgled me.

A very interesting thread.
I haven't any 1st hand experience of work with prisoners but always though thaving to live in those conditions would be my worst nightmare. No wonder there are so many prison suicides.
All I can offer is that instead of just throwing together the various types of people who have broken the law there should be a greater variety of provision, according to each one's needs.
Which would involve a major revision of the 'criminal' law and its penalties.

How does teaching good behaviour and obeying the rules =
pulling your forelock and doffing your cap ?

Ngaio, I would feel exactly as your do if I'd been burgled or mugged or wahtever.

But I know revenge doesn't work.

Tugging forelocks is a really silly comment, it’s about accepting reasonable discipline, or is that wrong?
Parenting and schooling is about boundaries, respect for others and educating children to be honest, useful members of society and we are failing badly. One big problem young people have entering work is doing what they are told, assuming they have turned up on time. Or is some bleeding heart liberal going to say we should allow children to express themselves however they wish and be free to abuse others at will.

We must make sure behavior improves and stop children breaking laws and rules because once they have been in prison finding any kind of work is so much harder

How does teaching good behaviour and obeying the rules = pulling your forelock and doffing your cap?

Because we have moved and need to move from teaching the end to teaching the means. You would be better teaching reflection, analysis and the ability to research just as we are doing in the subjects that are taught. Life is moving and changing too fast to learn the answer to everything.

We used to live in a slower moving, unchanging society where our grandparents could hope that a set of rules could keep you safe. We taught our children to understand why and when it was important to apply those rules and why and when it wasn't. Now there are a lot fewer rules and our grandchildren need to be taught how to think for themselves and navigate society as it changes.

Ngaio1 and Alexa I have been burgled. I do not feel like this.

Ngaio1 - Please don’t take as fact anything that an offender says to his girlfriend! There is a lot of bravado goes on around the prison life.

Still doesn’t equal pulling your forelock and doffing your cap.

Good behaviour needs googling ?

Setting rules in the home , home by 10.00pm needs googling ?

I prefer boundaries to rules, and sadly many children don’t have boundaries .