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Who is going to care for all these extra children?

(88 Posts)
Grammaretto Sat 09-Nov-19 10:07:32

I was surprised to hear the LibDem spokesperson on the radio today offering childcare from 9 months until school starts. Where are all these new nurses/teachers/babysitters coming from?

I think very small children should have as near one to one care as possible. The idea of a huge nursery when they are tiny, appals me. Am I just old fashioned?

Some if not all, day nurseries are excellent and have the resources to do their job well but if you want to extend that all of a sudden to everyone, for free, I foresee problems.

Doodledog Sat 09-Nov-19 23:31:15

I'm not saying that people who stay at home with their children aren't using their brains. I am saying that the idea that only those who need the money go to work is false, or that some women somehow pretend that they need the money as an excuse to work.

If they are lucky, people can make choices; but these depend on all sorts of things - money may be a factor, but so may a desire for financial independence or a need to be doing something outside of the home. People rarely question a man's need to work, whether or not he is a father, and he is not percieved to be short-changing his children by doing so.

Also, working mums and dads still talk to their children, educate them and teach them about the same things as stay at home parents, and many people use TV as a babysitter, whether they are at home or at work.

blondenana Sat 09-Nov-19 23:40:00

I think it is terrible that babies need to go into nurseries at all, i'm glad i could look after mine at home, but had to sacrifice financially ,as a lone divorced mother,,
I would have loved to be able to work, but no free nurseries anyway then, but babies should be at home with mum in my opinion
Women weren't pushed out to work then though like now

GagaJo Sat 09-Nov-19 23:50:34

SO many judgments on here! A lot of ignorance of how HARD it is these days for young families. A mortgage for a small family house can take up to 75% of the bread winners wages, house prices are so high. The other partner 99% of the time has no choice other than to work.

I have a couple of young teacher friends. They couldn't AFFORD for her to take the whole year off after the birth of their first baby and had no choice, other than to put him into a nursery, which is STILL taking a large percentage of her wages. And they are professionals in the north of England where house prices are low.

In addition, it is PROVEN that children develop better (socially, academically, emotionally) if they are in an educational setting earlier. So actually, children in daycare develop more quickly than children at home with mum.

The BEST childcare system I've ever seen however, is in China. The grandparents retire MUCH earlier than we do in the UK. By 50, grandmothers are retired. Grandparents provide free childcare while the parents work. It is very common to see elderly couples pushing pushchairs, holding the hands of toddlers, taking them to the park, in the supermarkets.

I wish I could be retired and do the childcare and then home school my grandson. But by the time I retire, he'll be post university and probably married.

ElaineI Sun 10-Nov-19 00:09:21

Scottish Government is introducing (being trialled this year) increased free childcare for all 3 year olds and some 2 year olds next year. There are not enough council nursery places so child minders and private nurseries once signed up will be used as well. You don't have to accept all the hours and can mix and match. DD2 currently has child minder for 2 days costing £505 per month even when CM is ill or on holiday. She is a nurse and leaves house at 7am getting home (if lucky) at 6pm. We do 2 days and baby's aunt another day. This will help her stay in a job which she loves but is difficult as DGS2 is 19 months and lately very clingy to mummy. He cries when he is taken away in morning though soon settles. It's better when we have him as I drive her to work and he is ok when she goes into work then we do activities together. The child care is left to each LA to organise and they are all doing it differently so very complex! In DD1 primary school (she is a teacher) the nursery is one of the trial sites and because the children are offered full time care now the places have been cut in half so parents may be offered a nursery place in a different town within the county - not always accessible on country buses so how that will work I have no idea. Also the children in nursery are in school longer than the children in primary 1 and 2 which is bizarre.

Iam64 Sun 10-Nov-19 08:34:27

I despair that whenever this subject is discussed, some posters take up such judgemental, critical positions about any 'mother' (and it always is the mother) who choses or economic reasons mean she has no choice, but to return to work.
As others have said, the evidence is clear, that children benefit from attending good quality pre school care. that includes nurseries, which are no longer places where children are to use the phrase used here "farmed out".

Witzend Sun 10-Nov-19 08:48:07

It's not just a question of finances at the time. Although childcare costs were ruinous (at one point she and SiL had two in daycare 4 days a week) my dd works in a specialised field she enjoys and is good at. If she'd taken a few years off it would have probably been impossible for her to get back on the career ladder where she stepped off.

Having said that, if money were not an issue at all, and if she could have been sure of returning to the career ladder where she'd left it, I'm sure she'd have liked to stay at home with her little ones for rather longer. For a start, she'd have been less tired.

It's just not an option for so many parents nowadays though, particularly given the way housing costs have soared in the last 15 years or so, compared to incomes.

Grammaretto Sun 10-Nov-19 08:57:44

I began this thread Iam64 so must take some responsibility. It is the wording. Emotive subject I'm afraid and bound to cause controversy but there we have it. We only have one chance at life - I think - so have to make difficult choices along the way.
As soon as we mention childcare all the old prejudices rise up.

Who is going to say "I made a bad choice?"
My children were ruined by terrible preschool experience. I don't think so.

I have friends who Home school, others who pay a fortune to have their offspring privately educated, or move house to be in the catchment area for the "best" schools. or nurseries. We all want what we hope is the best for them because we love them and if we think/believe that being at home with mum is the best thing then it is.

janipat Sun 10-Nov-19 09:08:53

In addition, it is PROVEN that children develop better (socially, academically, emotionally) if they are in an educational setting earlier. So actually, children in daycare develop more quickly than children at home with mum.

The BEST childcare system I've ever seen however, is in China. The grandparents retire MUCH earlier than we do in the UK. By 50, grandmothers are retired. Grandparents provide free childcare while the parents work. It is very common to see elderly couples pushing pushchairs, holding the hands of toddlers, taking them to the park, in the supermarkets.

GagaJo these two paragraphs seem slightly contradictory? Are you saying grandparents doing the childminding is the best of the inferior ways of raising a child?
I support parents who wish to work outside the home, or parents who chose to stay at home to bring up their children. What I have a problem with is the assertion so often that a parent staying at home with their child is the lowest form of childcare and that these children don't develop as well as their counterparts who are placed in a nursery environment. My neighbours opposite, the dad has stayed home for the past 5 years to bring up their twins, while mum who has greater earning potential returned to work very early. Their children are delightful, sociable and intelligent. Maybe some would think that's because it wasn't their mum doing it? In the support of women who return to work for whatever reason, I so wish it wasn't the norm to rubbish those women that don't. Not much sisterly support there.

mokryna Sun 10-Nov-19 10:07:08

I can only confirm what has already been said regarding nursery schools in France. My daughters went when they were two where they could play while learning with others, much more than I could in my small flat. Nursery started at 8.30am. We had the choice of them staying for lunch and then sleeping in a dorm and picking them up at 4 o clock or coming home at 11.30am for the rest of the day. It was/is free except for the lunches.
Nursery and primary schools in those days did not open on Wednesdays, however primary school children had to go to classes at 8.30 on Saturday mornings. The nursery schools were open but it wasn't obligatory. There were about 25 children to a class and the teacher had an assistant.
Moreover, in Australia the locals and in China the long stay foreigners, tried to get their young children to be allowed to join the French nursery school, when I was there.

growstuff Sun 10-Nov-19 10:22:58

Nurseries and nursery schools in the UK have a much higher adult/child ratio than in France. I'd have to look them up.

Up to the age of two, my own children were in a nursery, where the ratio was 1:3. Staff weren't distracted by all the other chores a stay-at-home parent has, so in terms of actual contact time, I wouldn't mind betting they had more adult contact than a child at home with a parent.

growstuff Sun 10-Nov-19 10:28:23

janipat When my children were little, we lived in a village, where the vast majority of mothers didn't work because they didn't need to. I was the one who was ostracised and rubbished because I worked full-time. I don't think I could have stood being part of any of the bitchy cliques, but it was quite hurtful that they ostracised my children too.

Pantglas2 Sun 10-Nov-19 10:36:23

That’s horrible Growstuff- I know when I found a part time job once my DD went to school there was some tut-tutting but mainly from older women who’d not done so themselves.

I felt fortunate to have the best of both worlds and know I did the best thing for my family - each to their own.

GagaJo Sun 10-Nov-19 10:43:26

Janipat, I'm aware they're contradictory. However they come from different perspectives.

1st paragraph is about DEVELOPMENT. Children develop better and quicker when they're relatively independent, in an environment among their peers. GOOD quality childcare, obviously. A poorer quality environment would be less beneficial.

A single child, at home, with a parent IS disadvantaged. With all the best will in the world, a child at home with mum maybe gets taken to a couple of hours of playgroup 2 or 3 times a week.

The 2nd paragraph was from a practical point of view. COST. Grandparents caring for children is free for parents, and enables parents to return to work at their convenience. I'm not sure about maternity pay in China (being lazy, it would be easily googleable).

I had to work for financial reasons (not to put foie gras on the table, to be able to keep a roof over our heads, which at times was touch and go). My daughter was MUCH better off when I was able to get her into a childcare program. Childminders were much more hit and miss. She had a couple of lovely ones, but frankly, some were dodgy, just doing it so they could stay at home with their children.

My daughter lives with me and the opposite is true. Grandson is at home with mum all the day. He is crying out for nursery. A very sociable boy, language slightly delayed. He'd move on in leaps and bounds if he were in nursery BUT paradoxically, because she isn't a professional, nursery would cost more than she could earn so isn't an option.

jura2 Sun 10-Nov-19 11:03:04

About rôle models - my mother always worked, and I am so grateful she did. It told me I could do what I wanted, taught us all to be self reliant and able to take responsibility early.

When I decided to go to Uni when youngest started school- all the neighbours and others tut-tutted and thought it was just crazy... DD1 spends a lot of time supporting young women in her business - and often talks of her pride when attending her mum's Degree ceremony- and how it inspired her- just as her granny had inspired her.

Grammaretto Sun 10-Nov-19 11:20:34

People can be so nasty to eachother. Sorry to hear of your experience growstuff
Why can't we live and let live?

When I went back to work part time I found an exceptionally good childminder for our youngest, whom I liked and trusted but I was quite surprised to find that the parent of one of her other charges didn't have a job but just wanted time to herself.

It hadn't occurred to me that people could do that!
It is good to have your preconceived ideas challenged occasionally and to see how other people manage their lives.

GagaJo Sun 10-Nov-19 11:33:57

I've had friends that still took their children to the child minder if for any reason, they were off work.

NOT that I was super mum or anything. I certainly wasn't. But like you Grammaretto, it wouldn't even have occurred to me to do that. If I was off work, kiddo was with me.

SueDonim Sun 10-Nov-19 14:00:59

I think it's actually quite hard being a stay-at-home mum these days. Because so many parents both work there isn't the community of other mums like there was when mine were young.

One of my DD's friends is going back to work early after her second baby because the thought of spending the winter cooped up in the house is just too much. She lives rurally, there are no other mums nearby amd no one for her little ones to play with. Everyone will enjoy it if she's back at work.

As for sending children to nursery when the parents are at home, all my DC have done that. Partly it's because they don't want to change the child's routine and partly it's so that they can do things such as Christmas shopping or big tasks around the house that would take twice as long with children in tow.

All the nurseries my GC have been to are very well staffed, sometimes with more adults than children! Those adults devote their days to the children, the breadth of what they do is stunning. I couldn't provide a donkey for my children to ride or a London bus to play in, nor plant a maze or keep chickens on an allotment!

growstuff Sun 10-Nov-19 16:41:55

Exactly, Sue Donim

I used to have to pay for my children to be at nursery for the whole year, even though I only worked during term-time. My children used to plead with me to go to nursery, because they had friends there, a big field, a forest area, a sand pit, a well-equipped playground, a wendy house, loads of toys, dressing up, a veggie garden, two or three activities (such as modelling and painting) a day, theme days, story time, etc etc. I couldn't have provided all that.

Grandma70s Sun 10-Nov-19 16:45:37

There seems to be an assumption among some that grandparents and other relations live near, and are fit enough to look after young children. This simply is not the situation in many cases.

My grandchildren live 200 miles away, so there’s no question of my caring for them.

jura2 Sun 10-Nov-19 16:56:31

Indeed- I had no relatives and certainly no grandparents to help with ours, for sure. Came home on day 3 after an emergency C section (transversal breech- after many hours in labour) - and an OH that worked crazy hours including nights and week-ends away.

We have often discussed childcare with out DDs - and neither they, nor us - would have ever considered us being full time carers for our beloved GCs. It is totally wrong that his is now 'expected'. Some of our friends travel long distances at the crack of dawn, 5 days a week- others have some GCs 2.5 days a week, and the other GCs the other 2.5 days. That is NOT the job of grandparents- not now, not then.

They know that in an emergency they could ring me a 3am and I would be on the earliest plane out and with them by 9.30 am and stay as long as needed- and that we are available for holidays and special occasions- with joy and love- but not 24/5.

Grammaretto Sun 10-Nov-19 17:26:31

There are no right or wrong answers are there. Everyone muddles along as best they can.

I agree SueDonim that there is no longer the community support, coffee mornings, walks to the park which were commonplace when my DC were young. In Scandanavia there have never been (I have relations there)

A group of us set up an informal babysitting session, taking it in turns to be on duty, and 2 of us would supervise all the kids. It was just once a week but the people I met there, all those years ago, are still my friends, though we are scattered around the world With H&S and disclosures, we wouldn't be allowed now!

Something which did sadden me was when a highflying hospital consultant told me her DC were in nursery from day 1 because she didn't have the skills, confidence or inclination to look after them herself.

Eloethan Sun 10-Nov-19 19:05:11

A couple of pages into this thread there was a very indignant post objecting to "the assertion that a parent staying at home with their child is the lowest form of child care".

I don't think anybody on this thread made nasty comments about stay at home mums. What was suggested was that there may also be upsides to children going to nursery - more interaction with other children of the same age, more space, more play facilities, etc, etc

It was also pointed out that a mum may feel unable to take a long period of time away from her job if she is to have anything like the same opportunities for advancement as someone who does not have to break their career.

These were not derogatory statements about stay at home mums.

Conversely, there were several posts that made very negative comments about working mums.

"We are doing them [children] a dis-service by putting them in a nursery for 10 hours a day". (I do have some sympathy with this comment but this is a systemic issue, not one that "mothers" or individual employees are responsible for. If the will was there, many organisations could be much more pro-active in supporting parents - more flexibility in terms of working hours - and, with big organisations, more willingness to provide good and affordable nursery facilities).

"There is no way I would have farmed out my children to a child minder or nursery."

"Some women pretend that they need the money as an excuse to work".

"tots should be at home with their mother"

"Free child care should only be for mothers who have no choice but to work". (I wonder how that necessity to work would be established).

"Why have babies if you don't want to care for them?"

So, in fact, all the truly judgmental statements - and actually statements that could be very hurtful to some people - were about women who go out to work, not women who stay at home.

Nowadays girls are just as likely as boys to continue to further education. They too want careers and a chance to advance, just as men do - and research shows that they are already disadvantaged just by being of child-bearing age. Furthermore, research has also shown that women who take the maximum time off after having a baby are more likely to be made redundant or be removed from their previous position and moved to wherever an employer chooses. No wonder so many women who have a well paid job with good prospects of advancement feel they have no choice but to resume work as quickly as possible.

On the other hand, women who have non-professional jobs and are poorly paid, cannot afford to pay very high nursery fees so they too often have little other choice than to stay at home.

So, in both cases, mothers are faced with serious dilemmas.
Yet it is they that are criticised for whatever path they take while fathers are hardly mentioned. And, as someone else said, women whose partners leave - and who are frequently unwilling to bear financial responsibility for the children they have left behind - are often forced to either sort out some kind of child care arrangement and work, or apply for benefit - leaving them then open to claims of being "scroungers", "irresponsible", "work shy", etc, etc.

As someone else said, is it so wrong that women, who may be doing jobs that they enjoy and for which they have worked hard, should wish to continue in that job? It is accepted that men do this. Nobody says to them "Well, why did you bother to have a baby if you wish to continue working?". Fathers too should be up in arms about this but, in the main, they keep silent and let their wives struggle with both working and taking on the lion's share of the domestic duties too.

annsixty Sun 10-Nov-19 20:37:20

This is getting away from the original point.
Who is going to pay for this free care and where are the staff to provide it?

jura2 Sun 10-Nov-19 21:28:48

Women who work pay taxes- some of them, an awful lot.

growstuff Sun 10-Nov-19 22:25:22

They pay National Insurance too, so when the time comes, they probably won't be eligible for Pension Credit. They won't be able to claim Universal Credit either. If they have a student loan, they'll be paying back part of that.

If extra jobs are created, those people will be paying income tax and National Insurance too and maybe saving by not claiming benefits.

There'll be more money floating around the economy, so they can spend more and create retail jobs.

As ever, the devil will be in the detail.

Managed properly, it doesn't need to cost that much.