And next it's Alex Salmond

I was absolutely stunned at the news about Rolf Harris. I remember catching a glimpse of it on the news on TV in the waiting area where I worked. Everyone was so shocked. And sad too.

There was always something spooky and weird about Jimmy Saville, but Rolf Harris? As you say, who would have thought!

The question is how can you be certain that a man has sexual intentions when he hugs, kisses or touches your bottom? or certain that a woman hasn't sexual intentions when she does the same things

There is no 'question'. For the avoidance of doubt and to clarify (Source: www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2017/jan/13/its-not-groping-or-fondling-it-is-sexual-assault)
According to the Sexual Offences Act 2003, the elements of the offence of sexual assault are:

• A person (A) intentionally touches another person (B)

• the touching is sexual

• (B) does not consent to the touching, and (A) does not reasonably believe that (B) consents.

The Crown Prosecution Service guidelines further clarify that “touching is widely defined and includes with any part of the body, or with anything else, and can be through clothing”. The definition is clear.

If you don't want the person to touch you or kiss you or hug you then it's wrong. Please don't claim that sticking a hat pin in the attacker is the solution and that women should simply learn to fight back - many women will freeze when they're assaulted or attacked and many will find themselves on the receiving end of an escalated attack if they try and defend themselves against someone who is much bigger than them. There is no one approach - every one is different - and until you've been in that situation it's impossible to say how you would act.

I'd forgotten about stilettos Nonnie! They could be used to great effect with the added bonus of appearing to be 'a mistake on purpose' if appropriate!!
I certainly never minded a cheeky woof whistle, It could actually be a bit disappointing if a friend got one and I didn't! Light hearted banter never bothered me at all, within limits!
I can remember slapping the face of a family member many many years ago which did the trick, but made future family get togethers a bit awkward! He died and I'm old! problem sorted!!

How often have we thought at the time things like “Rolf Harris? Surely not!” Or Jimmy Saville? Bonkers but surely harmless?” Or perhaps some of you have found it hard to be be believed about “uncle Frank” or (even worse) “Dad! Surely not”
What I am saying is that perhaps we have been naive, or gullible or innocent but OMG the scales are falling off the eyes now. I am fortunate in never, ever encountering any sort of abuse - doesn’t mean it’s not happening all over the place though.

Thanks for the link SirChenjin I think I already knew most of that. The question is how can you be certain that a man has sexual intentions when he hugs, kisses or touches your bottom? or certain that a woman hasn't sexual intentions when she does the same things. The problem is that the restrictions that once protected us have slipped and now someone can be huggy and kissey without any other intentions, simply enthusiastic, but it can land a man in serious trouble.
I do think that women taking action with a hat pin, stiletto heel or with a slap would stop men behaving in this way. Far more than the prosecution of some public figure. I'm not blaming the victims who have done nothing to deserve the attention, simply wishing that women could act more forcefully, defend themselves and stop such behaviour, be the attention sexual or not.

Jabber I used to use my stiletto heel! We used to have non-verbal ways of saying no, verbal ways and then physical ways. I simply wouldn't be traumatised years later if someone had put his hand on my bottom once. But then I was never traumatised by a man whistling at me, just thought they were stupid!

The hatpin!! Very useful in the Cinema!!!

I agree trisher. My DH's cousin (chap) was always a bit over enthusiastic with his greetings and 'silly' comments! It was harmless but disconcerting and tedious! I was glad when we moved! Would this now be considered an assault?!
I find the alleged assault on the bed by A.S a bit hard to believe, but who knows, it could be true. Time will tell! hopefully.

Here’s a link to the Scottish Govt site that explains what sexual assault is www.mygov.scot/rape-assault/

I'm prepared to wait until after the trial to judge his guilt.
But I do wonder I know a few women who insist on hugging and even kissing you when they meet you. Is this to be considered assault as well?
I also think there might be a case for bringing back the Edwardian hat pin.

By me - and all the other women on this and other threads who have challenged your posts which have put the blame at the door of the women who have been assaulted and attacked and murdered.

Certainly not by you!

I don't think so!!

Yes, raised - and I don’t care what nationality you are as it’s completely irrelevant. Consider yourself educated now.

Raised?! I'm not an American! My up bringing has served me well all my life,and actually is none of your business. End of conversation.

You’re pinning the blame on the wrong person there Jabber - it’s a shame that whoever raised you didn’t explain the concept of victim shaming and blaming to you at an early age. They should have also explained to you that women are more likely to be raped, sexually assaulted, sexually abused and murdered by men they know.

Anyone who goes back to the room of someone they've met on line and whom they know absolutely nothing about would be foolish. Nine times out of ten it would be fine, but monsters don't actually advertise the fact, so strangers can be very dangerous however charming they appear. Don't know about you, but I certainly had this dinned into me at an early age.

It’s plural cases, not case. Juries - as you know - find the accused not guilty in an overwhelming majority of cases.

Who knows! There could certainly be a case to bear, but on the other hand there may not be. Hopefully all will be revealed during the court case, and the jury can find accordingly.

As a previous poster has said : 10 women. ?

Of course - and the courts will do that and as we all know they tend to find the defendent not guilty. It’s interesting though that there are women on here who are quick to question the behaviour of the women - but then I suppose the sort of person who believes Grace Millane was “foolish” would tend to do that.

Of course the veracity of his accusers have to be questioned, as do his denials. Believing one persons verdict of events and trashing anothers without due process is not justice!

One could argue that works both ways Jabber - for example, questioning the veracity of the women who have accused him of these charges.

We must also be mindful of the fact that sexual assault and rape cases have very low success rates - it’s one of the reasons why so few are actually reported in the first place.

It certainly does! If he's found guilty then of course the full force of the law must be brought to bear! But until then I would have thought an open mind would be appropriate!