Do the Tories care?

Until we get a complete overhaul of the way government is run in this country it will always [well, most of the time] be run by what is largely a group of old Etonians who think they're still in the Bullingdon Club. All the shouting and filibustering needs to go and parliament needs to be dragged into the 21st century. It might be fun to watch but it's no laughing matter any more.

Gagajo Looking at that list can you give a definition of socialism that would encompass all of them, or even just Denmark and Venezuala?

The Scandinavian countries are unarguably democratic and obey the rule of law, but Venezuela? As for Serbia, deeply corrupt, riven by ethnic antipathies and racist. Bolivia has been having violent demonstrations against its government.

The range of governments policies and conduct across those countries suggests to me that socialism is anything you want it to be.

On the matter of age - it seems that the mean age of Conservative voter has decreased now to 39. It was 40 at the last election. There are also a larger number of young people voting Conservative now ( and the source is YouGov which is hardly a favourable one for the Tories as a rule).

Not always a bad thing MOnica. Nothing like a reasonable disagreement to keep the old grey cells active!

Since the end of WW2, traditional class boundaries have become blurred. The country now has a minority working in traditional manual jobs - and they're not always the poorest. Increased educational opportunities and home ownership have resulted in retirees now having a higher median income after housing costs than the working population. Maybe that goes some way to explaining why age is likely to be a better indicator of the way people vote. Young people are already seeing their pensions eroded and hopes of owning a home becoming increasingly difficult, unless they inherit.

I think the Labour Party has forgotten that even in the towns of "Workington Man and Woman" people still want opportunities. They don't want to be patronised and seen as "the poor" relying on the crumbs from the high table. They want the same as everybody else and the Conservative Party (rightly or wrongly) is seen as the party of aspiration. At the same time, they can't afford virtue signalling.

The Conservatives have got a big challenge to keep the votes they've gained this time. I don't have a crystal ball, so who knows what will happen?

GagaJo re your list os socialist countries.
What about France? I know Macron comes from what they call the right in France. But it's relative - imo he's still a socialist.

We do agree quite often, as often as we profoundly disagree

I'm glad we agree MOnica. It is the season of goodwill after all!

From the Observer today - age now more important factor than class. Our grandchildren won't be thanking us for it- and when there are more and more of us needing expensive care- when they can't get a decent job, a decent pension plan and a house to live in- they won't be happy to keep supporting us- can't blame them. At least I will be able to put hand on heart ...

''According to the pollsters YouGov, Labour’s share of the vote fell among the over-65s by even more than last time – to under 20% in 2019 from 24% in 2017. In 2010, Ipsos Mori said that 31% of over-65s voted Labour. This time, the Conservatives’ vote share among the over-65s was more than 60%.

It seems like an obvious conclusion to draw, but it can’t be said loudly enough that the generational gap in voting between the Conservative and Labour parties, which hit a record level in 2017, grew again in this year’s election.

Such is the extent of the divide between the old and the young that age has become more important than class.''

It's interesting that China represents the extreme left but its economy only took off when it ditched theoretical communism for state capitalism.

Alexa ''Opal, I agree with you capitalism is largely beneficial. What is needed is a political party that helps people to live well alongside private ownership. ''

well I could argue with that- fine. But surely you don't believe THIS Government is it, do you? We are talking here about wreckless and extreme capitalism- with no concern, empathy or understanding - living space even - for those who are not top winners.

growstuff I absolutely agree with your last paragraph.

A mixed economy has always been the best way. How much of each (capitalism and state control) is best will vary, but the shift should never be too far in either direction. Currently I do think the swing is too far towards capitalism but the alternative was a swing too far in the opposite direction, which, on balance, is usually, the more dangerous option and voters wisely steered clear of it.

Every single country in the world has elements of both socialism and capitalism. As labels and weapons, they're fairly meaningless terms.

Socialism does not have freedom of speech as a core value. Socialism is a term used in economic and political theory, whereas freedom of speech is a term used in human rights. They have nothing to do with each other.

Opal, I agree with you capitalism is largely beneficial. What is needed is a political party that helps people to live well alongside private ownership. A political part like this would form a government that centralised control of land use, public transport, education, health and social care, utilities and defence. Such a government would be flexible and able to step in and address injustices , so that each department was not hidebound into some ideology like the Tories are now.

Ironically, Singapore is often considered to have one of the most free market economies in the world. However, the Singapore government also owns most of the means of production (capital), so it's also ranked as one of the most socialist.

Because socialism didn't destroy the Venezuelan economy. Reliance on the petro-dollar did. World trade is based on capitalism, so any country which wishes to trade with other countries (and they all do) is vulnerable to markets.

And there's me thinking that it has been destroyed by a corrupt socialist wannabe dictatorship depriving its people of basic supplies, imprisoning anyone who opposes it, and suppressing freedom of speech. The very things that so called "socialists" say are their core values. But hey, why blame that when you can blame "capitalism"?

Venezuela's economy depends on the petro-dollar and has been destroyed by capitalism (not that it had much choice).

Can anybody name any country in the world with an economy which doesn't have at least some capitalist element? I can't.

Capitalism is the default and I would bet anything that the British public didn't go to the ballot box with the thought that they were voting for capitalism as a priority.

My point exactly, only three Scandinavian countries are relatively successful and have centre left policies, but the size of their populations are much smaller than ours. There are NO economically successful countries with far left policies, that also provide their people with the personal freedoms we enjoy in the West, because their policies don't work in the same way, never have done, and never will.

Oh yes Venezuela.

Corbyn’s idea of a socialist utopia isn’t it?

People going hungry, inflation unbelievably over 1,000% and that’s just for starters. Look it up if anyone doubts me.

I am still enormously relieved that as a country we had the sense to reject that nightmare scenario.

It beggars believe that there are STILL completely deluded gullible people on here defending the dreadful dangerous man.

Portugal - Since 1975, the party system has been dominated by the social democratic Socialist Party and the liberal-conservative Social Democratic Party. The Economist Intelligence Unit has rated Portugal as "flawed democracy" in 2016.

Denmark isn't a socialist country

Monica good sensible posts ( but that never goes down well
With some left wing grans!)
They are in mourning..... denial being one of the stages .
Failure to accept and understand their Party’s abject defeat is ongoing.
It’s the Monty Python dead parrot sketch all over again.

SirChenin; do you think that now a lot of people in Scotland that were against independence before have changed their mind? I'm only saying that in that people may be put off having seen how divisive such things can be.