Tory minister calls for introduction of social care insurance

My Mother ended up in a Nursing Home. My Father was still in the family home.

There had been a Top Up but eventually she ended up getting all her fees paid

caretobedifferent.co.uk/category/nhs-continuing-healthcare/

This was quite an arduous task but eventually my Mother, who had dementia and was doubly incontinent got CHC and all fees were paid .

That's what I was thinking too, MOnica. I'm no expert on insurance or risk assessment, so I don't know how much it would cost to insure that amount of money. It might be doable for people starting in their 20s, but at that stage of their lives few people think about what might happen in 60 or 70 years. They've already been hit by increased NICs and pension contributions, while knowing that their own future pensions will be less generous than they are now. If a new system were to be voluntary, I can see many not opting into it, so what would happen in the future? Would they seriously just be left to die at home without any support?

It's by no means perfect, but at least the tax and NICs system means that there is some correlation between a person's ability to pay and what they actually pay.

One way or the other, somebody needs to pay for social care. It seems the big choice is whether the state pays for it through taxation/NICs, which means contributions are related to income, or whether people pay a fixed rate, which means that it will be prohibitively expensive for lower earning people.

It boils down to whether it's an individual responsibility or a collective responsibility.

The devil will be in the detail and I agree with the poster who wrote that everything should be on the table.

And so it begins...
(and yes, I do understand the differences which others have already outlined, but as many warned before the election, the privatisation of our NHS would not happen in one fell swoop, but insidiously, bit by bit).

Personal care insurance will not work because the premiums necessary to cover the cost would be too high. In 2017/8 LAs spent over £21 billion on social care and it is calculated that individuals spent another £11bn on top of that - a total cost of £32billion. The average weekly rate for residents in care homes is around £625. Obviously this varies considerably over the country.

The average length of stay in a residential home is about two years. At the average price rate that will cost around £65,000. Premiums for that much cover or more will be expensive and many people will not be able to afford it.

You are right Luckygirl successive Governments have opted out of the total overhaul needed by our Social Care system. It's a huge under taking.

A personal social care insurance policy wouldnt work for people who need social care as young adults who never had the chance to pay in!

True merlotgran. Like with free childcare policies that leave nurseries short changed so they have to find ways to add top ups to fees

I think it's a good idea and should have been implemented years ago but my concern is that care homes will bump up their charges just as vet bills went through the roof when it became the norm to insure your pets.

When it comes to the social care crisis IMO every possible idea and solution needs to be put on the table! Its just a starting point and IMO its wrong to criticise anyone for brain storming as it will take radical thinking to solve

I agree about the cross-party think tank - but there have already been several similar exercises in this field and they have come up with plans that no government has been brave enough to implement.

CoolioC - ah but you DO have to sell your property to fund an OH's care in some circumstances. You need to do that to pay the top-up. If you do not pay this third party top-up your OH will finish up in sub-standard care - where I live the maximum SSD will fork out for nursing care is £573 per week (from which they deduct his pension). Where oh where can you possibly find decent care for that money in today's market?

If you choose for your loved-one to have decent care the you have to pay a top-up; and if like me you cannot sustain that for long because you have insufficient savings then there is no choice but to sell and downsize.

Those who have had dealings with the present system (like Granny23 and Luckygirl) know only too well the immense strain it puts on relatives, at just about the worst time, too.

There just aren't enough hospital beds, nurses, care homes or home carers. What we do have is cut to the bone and rationed. Even the 'best' care is far from ideal.

My friend is helping to care for her mother, along with other family members and carers, despite being in her late sixties - and having had a heart attack herself. I see her getting paler and thinner, more worried and depressed, by the day.

What will happen to our kids? Their children will still be working and elderly themselves!

A tax/NI scheme (ring fenced for care) would have to be mandatory, just like pensions. Some of us won't need it but we'd all pay in and have peace of mind. It would be lovely to know, for sure, that we could give children an inheritance!

Slightly off topic, but I gather that in France, children of parents needing care are expected to help to fund it.

A French colleague of a dd, working in the U.K., is apparently legally required to pay €250 a month towards the care of her father, which she finds a great strain on top of mortgage, childcare and other bills. She particularly resents having to pay it since she describes her father as a wastrel and spendthrift who was never a good father anyway.

I can't imagine any govt. here daring to introduce a legal requirement for such a thing.

I do agree that there should be many more places for the elderly who don't actually need hospital care, but for whatever reason can't yet go home. An awful lot is said and written about very costly bed-blocking in such cases, but as so often, nothing is apparently done.

Most seem to think a social care tax would be a good idea, to raise a significant amount it would have to be levied on every employee and put into a separate pot, are there enough working people to pay for an increasing retired population.

Each and every one of us will age differently, have different physical, medical and mental needs.

I am not sure that there is a one size fits all solution, but a cross Party think tank would be a good start.

I really don't understand how social care insurance would work. Health insurance only covers you for a certain amount and should you need more expensive treatment you will either have to pay or use the NHS. Social care could be an unpredictable amount. So your insurance might seem enough to pay for your care for say 15 years, but if the cost goes up or you live for 20 years what will happen?

The insurance is a very good idea. I don`t believe that my AC generation should ever need to pay for my care, if needed, so yes I would get an insurance and so would my siblings.

Monica I agree with your post, we have paid when we haven't needed the care or treatment. It is a kind of insurance. Those younger people moaning its unfair to pay for them and older people should remember that we have contributed towards their education when we don't have children.

However we raise the money for social care it needs to go into a separate pot so it is not lost in some big black hole.

CoolioC I am sorry but I find your, no doubt well intentioned post, rather insulting to both. Lucky Girl and Me.

As I pointed out in my post my DH does NOT receive Attendance Allowance, because the DWP reckons that the Scottish Government's generosity in paying for Social Care, means that he does not need it. (BTW there is no refund via the Barnett formula for this!)

Lucky Girl has been forced into the position of selling her house because her LA will not pay the Top Up Fee required to enable her DH to stay in the home where he is settled.

Your post illustrates a view shared by many - i.e. that there are solutions and benefits available to assist those in need and Carers only need to be signposted to them for all problems to be solved. This is so NOT the case - there are hurdles to be overcome, assessments at every turn, promises and delays, waiting lists for everything, Homes closing, staff shortages, in short, it is like swimming in porridge.

I would not wish this on anyone, but those, including MPs at their surgeries, who through rose tinted spectacles, think that everything is Hunky Dory, are in for a rude shock, if they or their loved ones need to access the system.

This is the bit that worries me
"You need a bit of property wealth to do it but it'll be a controlled amount - they'll know what they're spending, they'll know what they've got left in their house - that's the system that I advocate.
because it sounds like only home owners will pay towards their care. Surely if anyone pays we should all pay but I fear an insurance system may well be unaffordable for most.

What governments (and some posters) forget is that we too were once in our 20s, 30s,40s,50s. Yeas when we rarely used the NHS, and, even more rarely needed hospital or caring for, yet paid the full rate NI and taxes, which were proportionately far higher then they are now, but drew relatively little in benfits. Everything we paid went towards caring for those that were old and in needof care.

Is it too much to expect to be treated similalry?

I am going to put the cat amongst the pigeons here but to be honest the sysgtem needs a re think and that includes how we fund the NHS. My experience is that the NHS is not fit for purpose. The funding from taxation and NI etc. is not well spent and the same goes for social care.

Even in EU countries, so beloved of the remain minded here, they have systems of insurance and payments upfront ( claimed back if you qualify).

I would not necessarily advocate payment at the point of delivery but we need some sort of pre certification to ensure the NHS is not being taken for a ride in terms of what it provides and the cost of that.

I think the NHS needs to stop being the sacred cow and we need to look at it closely. It was not designed as a care service for so many people or for so many conditions and issues.

Social Care is tied in with Health as with the Health and Social Care Act 2012 So Social Care And NHS will be privatisation

You were warned the Tories want to sell off our NHS

I think it's a good idea. It's unfair to expect children to take care of their elderly relatives, and the NHS was never intended for social care.
People need to take more responsibility for themselves, instead of seeing it as someone else's problem.

Sorry this was for LUCKYGIRL too.