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Tory minister calls for introduction of social care insurance

(89 Posts)
GagaJo Sat 14-Dec-19 23:15:23

Grany Sun 15-Dec-19 06:25:34

Just before election Tory said no privatisation of our NHS

Jane10 Sun 15-Dec-19 06:54:12

Social care isn't NHS care. Something has to be done about longer term care of older people. This is a discussion starter. Other suggestions have been made. Obviously social care is expensive. There needs to be a huge increase in provision plus a better career structure, pay and conditions for potential carers.
I'll be interested to see how it goes.

Daisymae Sun 15-Dec-19 07:54:49

But we have national insurance. Why not I increase that so that it's universal?

janeainsworth Sun 15-Dec-19 08:12:23

It’s certainly a debate that’s needed.
But Damian Green says “that under general taxation, those currently in their 30s, 40s and 50s will be paying both towards the care of the present older generation as well as towards their future care“

It must have escaped his notice that many people in their 60’s, 70’s and 80’s are still paying tax!

Sparkling Sun 15-Dec-19 08:17:22

I will watch with interest.

Granny23 Sun 15-Dec-19 09:10:32

My DH's new Tax Code arrived yesterday. He is currently self funding in a care home, paying nearly £800 per week in accommodation charges, while his 'Social Care' is funded by the Scottish Government to the tune of £177 per week.At this rate he, will be fully self funding for approx. a year, then part funded until his savings are exhausted when only his state pension and 50% pf his 2 small private pensions will go towards his care costs the rest being met by the LA.

Meanwhile he is still paying tax on his pensions and Savings interest- the State giveth and the State takes away. It is all very complicated and entails lots of effort for me as his POA to keep on top of it. Here in Scotland, we are in the process of integrating Health and Social Care services, which will, in time, alleviate the discrepancy, which currently sees those who suffer from Dementia (a terminal life shorting DISEASE) paying for the services they require, while those with other diseases are funded via the NHS. We have been unfortunate in that DH's needs have arisen in this transition period (which has caused massive confusion e.g. self funding Care Home residents in England, still receive their £88 per week attendance allowance but this is denied to Scottish residents because they are in receipt of Free Personal Care) but it should rationalise the system for the future.

sodapop Sun 15-Dec-19 09:15:06

I agree with Jane10 a discussion which needs to start somewhere and soon. So many people are struggling.

Davidhs Sun 15-Dec-19 09:19:13

How much social care each of us needs is always going to be a lottery, we have no idea how our health is going to be in later years.
Because so many don’t start earning until much later than previously, then have student loans and house purchase and pensions to eat up income, is it realistic to expect social care insurance to be possible for most. Or is it just being proposed as a stealth tax, in which case just increase NHS insurance.
The present system where if the family can’t or won’t provide care for the elderly, the House and Savings are used to pay the bills. When that is used up the state pays, of course if individuals wish to put money aside for care they can but it is still likely to be the house that is the main asset.

CoolioC Sun 15-Dec-19 09:21:45

It’s a good idea. Also, to separate from NI so as to show where the funding goes to a different pot.

Every scheme has to start somewhere, similar to that in 1947.

Hetty58 Sun 15-Dec-19 09:29:22

It's painfully obvious that something has to be done - and very soon. I'd favour increased taxation to ensure a proper level of funding. This government won't do that, though. Where does that leave us, our friends, our children and grandchildren?

Jane10, it does impact on the NHS. Continuing care covers both medical and social care for the severely disabled. It is NHS funded because, at this level, specialist care is needed.

Many elderly people with complex needs (who a few decades ago would have certainly been in hospital) do qualify, but, due to funding limitations, are deliberately scored as 'low' in needs. They end up with standard carers instead of nursing care!

It's a national disgrace. Practically speaking, you require a specialist solicitor to obtain it:

Luckygirl Sun 15-Dec-19 09:57:46

Granny23 - I too am left holding the baby of trying to wade my way through an iniquitous system. My home is going on the market after Christmas to pay for OH's care. I love the way SSD use the designation "top-up" when I am paying 3x per week than they are!!

Hetty58 - deliberately low scoring on continuing health care assessments is definitely the name of the game - or worse still not telling people about the possibility of qualifying. I have appealed against a refusal and they are just playing delaying tactics in the hope that I will just give up.

Someone in government needs to grasp this painful nettle and seek to get a proper bill through parliament that sorts this mess out once and for all.

Have they no idea of the stress on already distressed relatives of this grim system?

There is not doubt in my mind that in the long term there does need to be a specific tax earmarked for this - but it will be too late for my OH to benefit from any new legislation - and for me.

EllanVannin Sun 15-Dec-19 10:03:58

I think it's a good idea. We all get home insurance/ pet insurance/life insurance /car insurance so why not ? At least it'll help cover the needs of those who go into nursing/residential care.
I would suppose there'd be certain levels depending on the care/needs so therefore increased premiums in line.?

Less worry for surviving families too. It should have been implemented years ago then perhaps many homes could have survived instead of being closed down through lack of funds. Also the scheme would release many of those who are taking up valuable hospital beds because there's nowhere for them to go.

Something's got to happen before long because in the next few years there are going to be many of us needing some sort of help/assistance, not necessarily in nursing/residential but in our own homes and the costs are quite heavy depending on the care and frequency of visits by carers.

CoolioC Sun 15-Dec-19 10:05:40

Granny 23. You should not put your home in the market to pay for your husbands care.

I do not know your circumstances however the limit is 23250 in savings for your husband. Therefore if you have a total savings between you of 50K the LA will take 25K and say you are over the top until that sum goes under the 23250. There is then a sliding scale of payment between 14K and 23250. Your husbands SRP, private pensions and any other income is taken into account to pay for the home including DLA if he is under 65/in receipt of or AA if over 65. If you are living in your joint home you DO NOT have to sell to fund. Please contact your LA adult social care scheme and ask for a FAB assessment.

CoolioC Sun 15-Dec-19 10:06:37

Sorry this was for LUCKYGIRL too.

ladymuck Sun 15-Dec-19 10:15:29

I think it's a good idea. It's unfair to expect children to take care of their elderly relatives, and the NHS was never intended for social care.
People need to take more responsibility for themselves, instead of seeing it as someone else's problem.

Grany Sun 15-Dec-19 10:35:45

Social Care is tied in with Health as with the Health and Social Care Act 2012 So Social Care And NHS will be privatisation

You were warned the Tories want to sell off our NHS

aprilrose Sun 15-Dec-19 11:02:43

I am going to put the cat amongst the pigeons here but to be honest the sysgtem needs a re think and that includes how we fund the NHS. My experience is that the NHS is not fit for purpose. The funding from taxation and NI etc. is not well spent and the same goes for social care.

Even in EU countries, so beloved of the remain minded here, they have systems of insurance and payments upfront ( claimed back if you qualify).

I would not necessarily advocate payment at the point of delivery but we need some sort of pre certification to ensure the NHS is not being taken for a ride in terms of what it provides and the cost of that.

I think the NHS needs to stop being the sacred cow and we need to look at it closely. It was not designed as a care service for so many people or for so many conditions and issues.

M0nica Sun 15-Dec-19 11:13:21

What governments (and some posters) forget is that we too were once in our 20s, 30s,40s,50s. Yeas when we rarely used the NHS, and, even more rarely needed hospital or caring for, yet paid the full rate NI and taxes, which were proportionately far higher then they are now, but drew relatively little in benfits. Everything we paid went towards caring for those that were old and in needof care.

Is it too much to expect to be treated similalry?

FlexibleFriend Sun 15-Dec-19 11:26:59

This is the bit that worries me
"You need a bit of property wealth to do it but it'll be a controlled amount - they'll know what they're spending, they'll know what they've got left in their house - that's the system that I advocate.
because it sounds like only home owners will pay towards their care. Surely if anyone pays we should all pay but I fear an insurance system may well be unaffordable for most.

Granny23 Sun 15-Dec-19 11:37:36

CoolioC I am sorry but I find your, no doubt well intentioned post, rather insulting to both. Lucky Girl and Me.

As I pointed out in my post my DH does NOT receive Attendance Allowance, because the DWP reckons that the Scottish Government's generosity in paying for Social Care, means that he does not need it. (BTW there is no refund via the Barnett formula for this!)

Lucky Girl has been forced into the position of selling her house because her LA will not pay the Top Up Fee required to enable her DH to stay in the home where he is settled.

Your post illustrates a view shared by many - i.e. that there are solutions and benefits available to assist those in need and Carers only need to be signposted to them for all problems to be solved. This is so NOT the case - there are hurdles to be overcome, assessments at every turn, promises and delays, waiting lists for everything, Homes closing, staff shortages, in short, it is like swimming in porridge.

I would not wish this on anyone, but those, including MPs at their surgeries, who through rose tinted spectacles, think that everything is Hunky Dory, are in for a rude shock, if they or their loved ones need to access the system.

Barmeyoldbat Sun 15-Dec-19 11:43:47

Monica I agree with your post, we have paid when we haven't needed the care or treatment. It is a kind of insurance. Those younger people moaning its unfair to pay for them and older people should remember that we have contributed towards their education when we don't have children.

However we raise the money for social care it needs to go into a separate pot so it is not lost in some big black hole.

craftyone Sun 15-Dec-19 11:44:04

The insurance is a very good idea. I don`t believe that my AC generation should ever need to pay for my care, if needed, so yes I would get an insurance and so would my siblings.

trisher Sun 15-Dec-19 11:52:15

I really don't understand how social care insurance would work. Health insurance only covers you for a certain amount and should you need more expensive treatment you will either have to pay or use the NHS. Social care could be an unpredictable amount. So your insurance might seem enough to pay for your care for say 15 years, but if the cost goes up or you live for 20 years what will happen?

GrannyGravy13 Sun 15-Dec-19 12:39:28

Each and every one of us will age differently, have different physical, medical and mental needs.

I am not sure that there is a one size fits all solution, but a cross Party think tank would be a good start.