Sensible discussion on Labour Leadership hopefuls

I also agree with MaizieD The trans rights people do seem rather bullying.
Do these lobby groups really speak for as many people as they claim? I include groups with names like "The Taxpayers Alliance" "The Countryside Alliance" etc.

I don't think anyone has suggested this thread is for labour members only have they?

differ that’s = differentiate

Maizie the trans lobby is relatively small in number but huge in influence - for reasons I do not begin to understand. But for some reason, they are listened to and their ideas implemented into policy out of all proportion to their numbers. Stonewall are the ‘go to’ organisation now for a whole range of literature, online resources and training courses for organisations up and down the land. They have imo thrown lesbians under the bus in their over emphasis on trans rights ( by which they mean really self id TW). But gay men and binary people also feel very let down by Stonewall which is why the LGB Alliance was formed.
I have to disagree that the numbers affected are small - the pledge if implemented ( and the proposed changes to GRA ) would negatively affect potentially millions and millions of women and girls. The impact of any policy/ legislative change has to be assessed not just by those who benefit from it positively but those who are negatively impacted. Lemon is quite right to differ that’s between transsexuals and those who self id. Those of us battling the relentless march of self id have some amazing and very brave transexual colleagues fighting with us. So please don’t see this as a minority issue, at its core it’s about redefining the whole concept of what is a woman and of wanting to see women as a gender category not a sexual category. People like RLB and LN don’t want to debate this or consider its impact on natal women’s rights - they’ve gone for the ( and I have to use this word) Stalinist approach of expulsion.

Of course it is not just an issue for LP members; it is also an issue for those who may switch their allegiance from a Conservative Party which they may feel has gone too far to the right, a Liberal Democrat party which seems to be losing ground and disaffected Labour voters who felt unable to vote for a Corbyn/McDonnell led party.

All those combined would ensure a Labour victory at a GE with the right leader and the right policies.

MaizieD I too was wondering what proportion of the population it affects. Whilst even the smallest minorities should not be ignored, it should not be at the expense of the majority whom these issues may also affect imo.

The question I ask about the trans/self ID issue is just how much would the aspiring leaders' signing or not signing of the pledge affect their chances?

The number of people in the population to whom this is personally important must surely be very small?

I'm not saying that it should be ignored. In a democracy minorities have a right to be heard and considered but I can't help feeling that it's been blown up out of all proportion by some very determined (and often quite vicious) lobbying. Would the votes of this minority be so very significant to the leadership chances of the candidates?

It’s also clear that Grandad whose posts have been pompous, patronising and ill-informed really doesn’t understand the basics of the issue and appears not to want to understand.

I meant of course it’s not for Labour Party members only

lovecheese POGS was quite right and entitled to raise the issue of the trans pledge. The pledge was deliberately brought out during the leadership campaign. 3/4 contenders signed and tweeted their support. Therefore it is a real issue in the campaign. It’s all over social media and has been covered on R4 several times and TV. For some natal women it’s a real and important issue that will influence how they vote in the contest. For others who are non members, it will influence How they vote in an election. This thread is not for Labour Party members - it’s for people who are interested in who becomes the next leader. That includes people like myself who are left of centre but also right of centre people who, whilst not wanting a Labour Govt, understand the importance to democracy of having an effective opposition.

I agree that bickering us not useful however I think it might be worth thinking about how new posters might view this thread. I joined in a discussion that was already occurring on this thread, having only posted on here once previously, to be told that I was ranting that everyone should ignore me because I wasnt a member of the party despite having a history of 30 years with the labour party, and clear hints that I was a tory trying to distract from the labour leadership. That is not in my view reasoned discussion, it is rude and unkind.

Watching all the candidates answer questions the other day,
Lisa Nandy was the more open and the only one who was saying how much the LP needed to change, possibly she felt free to be honest as she knows it’s unlikely she will win.
Thornberry and Starmer were the only ones that looked as if they could be LOTO or future PM’s.

Before the thread moves back to the OP, I must say I feel worried by the direction and seeming ‘power’ of the trans movement/activists.
There was no reason for the LP to sign up to any pledges.
I have sympathy for those who are going through surgery and all the necessary steps to change their sex, but no time at all for all the ‘self identifying’ people ( mainly men) demands for
Using womens spaces and sports.

There have been a few threads discussing the trans rights issues, suziewoozie, when the idea of self identification was first suggested.
All the political parties were travelling in the same direction, that is, towards self id.
Whether or not each candidate signs this pledge will not be enough to make the pledge part of party policy.
If it becomes party policy in the next manifesto, and you don't agree, then fair enough, don't vote Labour.
But this thread is about electing the next leader of the party, not deciding policy.
I'm not trying to tell anyone what they are allowed to discuss, but I was enjoying this thread and am disapointed that there has now started to be some bickering between posters, instead of the reasoned discussion previously.

The Jewish Labour Movement are backing Lisa Nandy

Tbf Yeh this thread hasn’t strayed from the OP. A sensible discussion of the leadership candidates in view of the emergence of the Trans pledge, has to include their position on the sex based rights of natal women and the promise by three of them to expel members of organisations such as Woman’s Place UK and LGB Alliance who are both fighting for the continued recognition of sex as a material biological reality. If you think this doesn’t matter and if the LP thinks it doesn’t matter, then it’s a huge mistake.

Well....going back to the OP, after watching that debate I’m not as happy with Kier Stammer as I thought I’d be. A bit ‘say what they want to hear’. Thornberry, sorry, not up to the job. Long-Bailey surprised me and I quite took to her, but she made me smile upping her accent. Lisa Nandy was interesting. Thought her point about these type of interviews well made and she did rattle Victoria who I am finding increasingly smug and trivial.

suziewoozie @20:43 ???

Do calm down Grandad.I’m rather afraid that your responses to being criticised are just a bit well you know just a bit male?. I am of course, as I’m sure you know using the word male in the sense of socially constructed gendered behaviour common amongst men ( as in biological sex) that arises in a patriarchal society and generally involves a sense of undeserved and unwarranted superiority viv-a- vis women. Now get back to your homework - you know you want to know what the cotton ceiling is.

Its fascinating to watch the problems within the labour party playing themselves out on this thread.
If we put our fingers in our ears and dont talk about these things if will all go away.
I dont know who can lead the labour party to recovery, the Vicyoria Derbyshire show was interesting, the visceral anger from labour voters was astonishing, the election is over, but the anger and betrayal was there for all to see, how the labour party row back from that I dont know.

Oh, apologies POGS, I was aware of that. Definitely very tired.

And again @20:41 suziewoozie. Keep it up. ?

I think you'll find that POGS is a woman.

suziewoozie again in your post @20:25 today you demonstrate extreme sexism which seems to underpin all your posts towards me in this thread as they contain little else of substance.

Ooohhhh can’t wait Grandad in the meantime you could educate yourself on the difference between gay and trans issues and read the pledge spotting the defamatory sections. I’ll mark your homework in the morning. ?

suziewoozie, in regard to your post @20:10 today, how can my response be "so male" when I have not responded to the matter you have raised.

It rather looks by your posts that you are trying to make this thread sexist in the extreme with your capitalisation of the word "WOMEN", which once again I will not respond to. ?

However as stated, I will respond to POGS post of yesterday where he touched on the same subject I believe, but that will not be in all probability until tomorrow. ?

Grandad one might almost be forgiven for thinking you don’t want to debate an issue you appear to know nothing about. Or to add to your knowledge base by learning from those of us who do know what we are talking about. How sweetly male. It reminds me of those jokes about male drivers who won’t stop to ask the way when they are lost but drive on regardless.