ZGracesGranMk3
see Joelsnan is asking for an apology. I am really not sure what she thinks it would be for. Who knows with people who throw facts around as if they don't matter. I rather think, but will not wait for it, that it is I who am owed the apology for what has been inferred about me personally.
Why do you persist in calling me a liar this despite my proof of fact (though should not have been needed)? I find your logic very strange.
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News & politics
Rough sleeper gives birth to twins outside wealthiest Cambridge college
(445 Posts)Rough sleeper gives birth to twins outside wealthiest Cambridge college. Woman delivered premature babies in front of Trinity College on Monday
A homeless woman gave birth to premature twins while sleeping rough outside Cambridge University’s wealthiest college.
The woman, believed to be about 30, gave birth outside Trinity College. She was helped by members of the public, who called an ambulance, according to reports.
A witness told Cambridge News she had seen the new mother and her two children wrapped up in blankets inside ambulances when she cycled past at about 7.15am on Monday.
“They were all in the ambulances by the time I cycled past,” she said. “My workmate was first on the scene, and luckily Sainsbury’s was open early that morning and she ran in there for help.
“I’m hoping she gets given somewhere to live and the babies are ok. With what people are doing right now with Corbyn’s Christmas Challenge [a social media fundraising effort in response to Labour’s election defeat] what happened is very relevant to many people.”
Is rough sleeping getting worse?
The government claims rough sleeping in England fell for the first time in eight years in 2018, from 4,751 in 2017 to 4,677. But the body that oversees the quality of official statistics in the UK has said the number should not be trusted after 10% of councils changed their counting methods. Rough sleeping in London has hit a record high, with an 18% rise in 2018-19.
The numbers of people sleeping rough across Scotland have also risen, with 2,682 people reported as having slept rough on at least one occasion.
Shelter, whose figures include rough sleepers and people in temporary accommodation, estimate that overall around 320,000 people are homeless in Britain.
What’s being done about rough sleeping?
The government’s Homelessness Reduction Act 2017, which places new duties on state institutions to intervene earlier to prevent homelessness has been in force for more than a year, but two thirds of councils have warned they cannot afford to comply with it. In 2018, James Brokenshire, the housing secretary, announced a one-off £30m funding pot for immediate support for councils to tackle rough sleeping.
How does the law treat rough sleepers?
Rough sleeping and begging are illegal in England and Wales under the Vagrancy Act 1824, which makes ‘wandering abroad and lodging in any barn or outhouse, or in any deserted or unoccupied building, or in the open air, or under a tent, or in any cart or wagon, and not giving a good account of himself or herself’ liable to a £1,000 fine. Leading homelessness charities, police and politicians have called on the government to scrap the law.
Since 2014, councils have increasingly used public space protection orders to issue £100 fines. The number of homeless camps forcibly removed by councils across the UK has more than trebled in five years, figures show, prompting campaigners to warn that the rough sleeping crisis is out of control and has become an entrenched part of life in the country.
Is austerity a factor in homelessness?
A Labour party analysis has claimed that local government funding cuts are disproportionately hitting areas that have the highest numbers of deaths among homeless people. Nine of the 10 councils with the highest numbers of homeless deaths in England and Wales between 2013 and 2017 have had cuts of more than three times the national average of £254 for every household.
What are the health impacts of rough sleeping?
A study of more than 900 homeless patients at a specialist healthcare centre in the West Midlands found that they were 60 times more likely to visit A&E in a year than the general population in England.
Homeless people were more likely to have a range of medical conditions than the general population. While only 0.9% of the general population are on the register for severe mental health problems, the proportion was more than seven times higher for homeless people, at 6.5%.
Just over 13% of homeless men have a substance dependence, compared with 4.3% of men in the general population. For women the figures were 16.5% and 1.9% respectively. In addition, more than a fifth of homeless people have an alcohol dependence, compared with 1.4% of the general population. Hepatitis C was also more prevalent among homeless people.
Sarah Marsh, Rajeev Syal and Patrick Greenfield
East of England ambulance service told Cambridge News that paramedics went to the scene just before 7am on Monday. The woman and her children were taken to Rosie hospital, a specialist maternity hospital on the outskirts of Cambridge.
Research by the Guardian last year identified Trinity as the wealthiest of all the colleges in both Oxford and Cambridge Universities, with published assets at the time of £1.3bn.
A crowdfunding campaign set up to raise money for the woman decried Cambridge as a place of “extraordinary inequality”. Jess Agar, who started the fundraiser, wrote: “Imagine giving birth alone on the pavement, in the shadow of the richest college in Cambridge.
“Whether we are religious or not, many of us will be familiar with the Christmas story of a mother who gave birth to her child in poverty, seeking refuge in a stable. This is the reality for many people living on the streets.”
Contributors have so far donated more than £9,000.
uk.yahoo.com/news/rough-sleeper-gives-birth-twins-144402965.html
Anyone with diagnosed mental health issues used to be housed in institutions
Sorry, but how can that be true? Surely the places would have been bursting at the seems if 1 in 4 adults experience MH problems during their lifetimes?
Joelsnan Sat 28-Dec-19 17:17: thank you but I may actually know nearly as much as you do.
The only thing I have disagreed with is "Anyone with diagnosed mental health issues used to be housed in institutions, ..." Nothing else. You keep telling me that LG is correct in saying this. I disagree. You are wrong. Everything else is you and now I see the "gang" including Jane 10 is joining in, refuting something I wasn't arguing in the first place (strawman).
I know these places existed. I know they did some good work and some not so good. I know we know a great deal more about mental illness these days. But I had never refuted that. Back to the simple words.
I think you, LG and anyone who tells me I am wrong or you are right are making your own argument - one I am not part of, did not disagree (or agree) with although you do seem to want to blame me for it.
All I said was that "anyone" with diagnosed mental health issues used to be housed in institutions was not true. Some people were - not anyone. And I have not added to or subtracted from that all the way through this. Only you and your little friends have. LG has thrown her bomb in once more and then left others to pick through the debris.
inkycog
I think the definition of a mental health issue has expanded over the years. Plus for many it was hidden because it was considered shameful to have a family member with a mental illness. Therefore it was only usually the really incapacitated or weak willed women who would be ‘put away’.
GracesGranMk3
Eh?
Who are my little friends?
Please re read my posts. I really do not understand your responses.
Graces gran, That isn’t what I meant.
Whether you agree with me or not. Clearly you didn’t get what I was trying to say.
I have recently come across a couple of issues when my opinion was called for. As someone who knew nothing about the subject ( a health issue) I found it hard to give my opinion as I didn’t know what was best for me.
It seems as though the powers that be are so frightened of getting sued that they are looking to us to make the decisions for ourselves. Some of us aren’t capable. I wasn’t in the incident just mentioned.
I read quite clearly that GGMK3 called Joelsnan a liar when she recounted her own factual experiences and agree that she deserves an apology for that. It doesn't seem to fit what GGMK3 thinks so she won't accept it.
I find your logic very strange.
Now, why am I not surprised. Why do you think it logical to distort what I was arguing against Joelsnan and then say I am calling you a liar when I have done nothing of the sort?
So now explain to me, and it looks as if inkycog shares my "strange logic" as you call it, why LG's statement that "anyone" with diagnosed mental health issues used to be housed in institutions is true.
That is all I have disputed.
In 1997, the local psychiatric hospital (formerly a very grand country house with grounds) closed and the buildings were converted to luxury housing.
About a mile away there was (still is) a notorious council high-rise estate, with a high proportion of problem families, criminals, prostitutes and drug dealers in residence. There were many empty flats - as even squatters wouldn't choose to live there.
When the hospital closed, guess where those deemed capable of 'independent living' were rehoused? That's 'care in the community' for you (or 'fresh meat' as was said by some)!
Pamelaj1 Then surely you would have the right to say that you did not know and give them permission to make the decision for you. A bit like signing a consent form before an operation.
I agree that doctors seem to want to involve patients more in decision making, and that can be quite distressing when one is not well.
inkycog: Chestnut, some posters believe there are fake beggars in Windsor and all travellers are nasty......
Why are you telling me that? I have never mentioned Windsor or said all travellers are nasty. Are you trying to start another spat by posting nonsense? There are plenty going on already.
Hetty- a common picture sadly.
Hetty58 I have come across a similar situation. Perhaps that was the sort of accommodation offered to the expectant mother of twins,and the streets seemed a safer option to her.
I read quite clearly that GGMK3 called Joelsnan a liar when she recounted her own factual experiences and agree that she deserves an apology for that. It doesn't seem to fit what GGMK3 thinks so she won't accept it.
I have reported every post where someone has said I called Joelsnan a liar. If you would like to quote where I said it I will withdraw my complaint.
inkcog
You ask sorry, but how can that be true
Well I certainly wasn't imagining it when I visited my mother in 3 mental health hospitals between 1961 -1972.
Dartford Heath hospital and Darenth park.
In that period she was sectioned 3 times.
To GGMK3:
Joesnan wrote During nurse training I visited two large mental institutions. These were situated in Huddersfield and Halifax.......... and then went on to recount her experience.
Your next post said:
I simply do not believe you or that this is true or something for which there is any proof Joelsnan
If you don't believe her and say she is not telling the truth then you are calling her a liar.
I think you are supposed to be able to give "informed" consent PamalaJ. If you didn't feel you were informed I would say so loud and clear. It can be complex but it is up to the professionals to explain it in a way you, and anyone else in that position, can understand sufficiently to make a decision.
The problem with human rights arises is deciding when you are unable to be "informed". It's often quite a fine line and not always the case that a person is unable to be "informed" even though they are doing something that is not good for them. We can, sadly, do that.
Good grief what is going on in this thread? It seems to me that some of us are reminiscing about the not so good old days and how people with LDs or Mental illness were managed.
I don't understand what the argument is?
Which post was that please Chestnut?
Simple Jane10. LG does not like to be disagreed with. I did. She had declared that "Anyone with diagnosed mental health issues used to be housed in institutions, ..."
I disagreed with the word "anyone" nothing else. But as aways others piled in - she couldn't be wrong, could she? How working in a mental health institution decades ago has anything to do with whether "anyone" or a rather more measured "some people" were sent to these institutions I have no idea. Perhaps someone can explain.
MS, of course you didn't imagine it and it must have been a terrible time for you.
I just don't see howeverybody suffering from MH issues was in an institution. JN, explains it as a change in attitude and I think she's right.
I think most people would agree that a combination of safe care and actual properly rescourced care in the community would be a good thing.
You should be able to find your own post GGMK3. I'm not going to trawl through them again.
Is this whole argument hingeing on nitpicking or the ultimate I peasantry?
Surely it would have been easier to have asked lemongrove if she actually meant anyone used to be or most used to be?
However, that way it wouldn't have been possible to create an argument.
[sigh]
No, Joelsnan is not correct. She claimed that anyone with a mental health issue was housed in an institution. It is simply not true that there were mental health places for everybody with mental health issues.
Rainhill Hospital, which was just south of Liverpool, had over 2,000 patients and closed in 1992, but even that didn't house everybody with mental health issues. One of my sisters worked there and some of the patients didn't even have mental health issues at all. Some of them had been placed there because they were "socially deviant" eg they'd had an illegitimate child. They had become institutionalised, which is why they sometimes found it difficult to cope outside the institution and were drugged to keep them calm.
Institutions for people with learning disabilities were something else and there have never been enough places for all of them either.
Gracegran, I must disagree with you. May because your mum is diagnosed with demetria its different, but I can assure you in my case it was completely different.
My son and I got PoA for daughters finances when she went to live under care in the community, on her own but with care coming in. As she had capacity, so say, we could only do anything with her finances with her permission. If she said she didn't want her electric bill paid, then I couldn't legally pay it. Yes we had a bank account set up using our POA and managed her money as best we were allowed.
It became obvious to everyone that she didn't have the capacity for finances so a Safe Guarding meeting was held in which everyone, social workers, Dr, myself,, son, care manager and others decided she did not have capacity and was at risk.
But it didn't make it legal, the Court of Protection were then presented with a the evidence and it took 14 months for them to make a decision in our favour. The wording on the document and letter was only the Court of Protection has the power to determine someones capacity.
So there you go.
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