Happy Day After Independance Day!

Nezumi - read it again , I did answer. To cut and paste:

Of course I would not allow someone to make a Nazi salute outside a Jewish school without commenting on it negatively

Stop fighting amongst yourselves.

For those that need some education on global medicine exports - www.worldstopexports.com/drugs-medicine-exports-country/

We are ballywell awash with medicines.

Hop over to an appropriate echo chamber, and let us celebrate without your crazy hopes for imminent disaster.

aprilrose - you haven’t answered - are you defending the right of someone to stand outside a Jewish school and make a Nazi salute.

And actually you have missed my point. If someone stood outside a Jewish school and made a Nazi salute they would be charged with a hate crime. It would be an offence. If I saw it I would report it to the police & they would deal with it. Likewise a Nazi salute made in the direction of my learning disabled son. I actually have the name of the person I need to contact in our local force should someone direct hate speech at my son. They take it seriously.

If you argue it is a right then you are aligning yourself with the likes of Nazis such as Yaxley-Lennon - not a good look tbh.

Nezumi65 - I have already told you that I know you wont agree. You have said everything I would expect.

The thing is there is evil in this world. In order to understand good we have to see evil. If you supress evil you will not be able tomeasure what is good because you have nothing to measure it against. That is why I defend freedom of speech.

Only by hearing words which are not good can you understand the enormity of them. Only by seeing things that are evil and hateful can you fully appreciate why they are unacceptable. If you close down free speech you close down the measure that allows us all to make discernments about ideas and behaviour and that eventually actually enables those ideas to germinate and grow.

You need to hear things to hear how bad they are. Shutting down speech will not stop people having thoughts but if you allow others to hear those thoughts and ideas you have some sort of censor put on the worst of them. That I believe is important.

When we call hate crime and other words we need to be sure of what we are doing. Of course I would not allow someone to make a Nazi salute outside a Jewish school without commenting on it negatively.

However, our hate crime laws seem to have been used rather too successfully by those who would hide their own evil acts and words by ensuring we cannot have the freedom to speak against them.

Tell those young girls in Rotherham, Keighly , Telford, Oxford and a number of other places that the law did not work against them because the Police and others in charge were afraid to speak out and call out the real crimes for fear of accusations of hate crimes being levelled at them.

Sometimes ( often) the only thing we have to do for evil to flurish is to supress anything that might be said against it.

Well, well well, I thought this thread wouldn’t prove popular, but how wrong I was?It’s especially popular with Remainers!
Amazing.

Dear God!

We have a poster defending Nazi salutes on the dubious grounds of 'free speech' and then indulging in a bit of whataboutery about leftwing anti-semitism.

No connection at all between Nazi salutes and anti-semitism, of course..

Joelnan, the EU has a very high standard when it comes to meds. Go to any Asian country and you will find that the majority of people will only take or accept meds that come from the EU. China is mistrusted because of fakes etc. The US will hike the price up and so cost the NHS more, but no worries Boris will be pouring money into it. Also you cannot swap brands with epilepsy type meds without a great deal of risk and if it is done it has to be done very gradually over a large period of time which can take up to a year or more.

I will never defend people’s right to spread hate speech. And there are laws against hate crimes now. One of my sons is learning disabled so particularly at risk of being targeted by hate crime and hate speech. If you want to defend that as free speech then shame on you.

I have no objection to free speech that is not hate speech. A Nazi salute is a hateful act. Would you defend someone’s right to make it outside a Jewish school? Because that’s what you seem to be saying.

Exactly Nezumi65 - and rather than defending anyone’s right to throw a few Nazi salutes I’m more inclined to say that they should be illegal and hope that the right wing party in charge at the moment look to move this hate crime to the statute books ASAP in light of the rise in hate crimes - because I certainly wouldn’t want any cause I’d voted for to be aligned with that behaviour and certainly wouldn’t be following a statement I’d made about fake news with a defence of the right of people to do them under the guise of free speech.

Nezumi65 - I believe in freedom of speech. I do not agree with you on many things you have said here, but I will defend your right to say them. I doubt you would do the same for me though. Therein lies the difference between us.

And if you train your dog to Nazi salute then expect a fine www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-43864133

Tommy Robinson was outside court bleating about freedom of speech.

And tbh if you start Nazi saluting your way around the place you may find that you are charged with a hate crime. If not a crime it will certainly be logged as a hate incident.

So your point is? What exactly? That therefore they’re acceptable? I disagree.

Have we really reached the stage where we are going to defend the right of people to give Nazi salutes?

I didt say I defended them. Infact I said entirely the opposite but it remains a fact that such salutes are not illegal in this country.

Have we really reached the stage where we are going to defend the right of people to give Nazi salutes?

If this is the future of Brexit Britain god help us all.

Absolutely I extend that to left wing parties - why would I not? This thread is not about left wing antI Semitic behaviour though - your continuous whataboutery is really interesting.

Don’t even go there with your ‘Nazi salutes aren’t illegal’ under the guise of free speech. Dear god.

That should instead be directed at the right wing parties who should be sending out a very clear message that hate crimes and racism have no part in Brexit, irrespective of how they’re reported

Are you willing to extend that to the left wing groups who seem to consider anti semitism OK? I am thinking especially of the isssues within the Labour Party which of course is mainstream left, not even far left.

Whilst I am not in any way condoning Nazi salutes, lets remember they are not illegal in this country. That maybe is the price of freedom and freedom of speech ( Those fredoms of people to say what they believe I am willing to defend with my life even if I do not agree with what is being said.)

You didn’t hesitate to say it - you did say it, knowing full well how inflammatory that phrase is. Why?

So you can categorically say that there have been no Nazi salutes or any other forms of racist chants as Leavers celebrate

I cannot find any other references to these incidents beyond the one reported and linked on this site. I have spent a lot of time looking. Of course no one can say categorically such things have not happened . The BBC have not reported it. I would have thought they would have been on anything like that pronto.

Fake news? I hesitate to say it as it might inflame some here but it has to be said it is not being picked up even by pro remain media.

Oooooooo I feel like a hornet’s nest has been stirred here!

Bollocks to Brexit doesn’t equate to nazi salutes or racist abuse in my book but I agree it was inappropriate/insulting/unnecessary/inflammatory/all of the above.

There was certainly a spike in hate crimes after the EU referendum and the terrorist attacks - but whether that’s down to better reporting should not be the focus. That should instead be directed at the right wing parties who should be sending out a very clear message that hate crimes and racism have no part in Brexit, irrespective of how they’re reported.

Are we more tolerant than Finland? Denmark? Sweden? Not sure why the claim we are the most tolerant country comes from.

If it were your beloved lefty Lib Dems singing 70 million Bollocks to Boris and his cabinet you'd no doubt think it was a hoot

But when a certain would be PM did go around with a B*ll*ck to brexit on her tee shirt the remainers thought it was a hoot and told Brexiters not to be "Snowflakes". Thats just hypocracy.

The Tee shirt was no more or less offensive that the song you are talking about.

And hate crimes have risen since the Brexit vote so a valid concern.

Have they? or has the reporting of hate crime risen? Reporting has been on the rise for sometime, maybe Brexit has emboldened people to make their complaints and expect someone to do something. Whichever way you look at it, this country is far more tolerant than any of those left in the EU and always has been.

Firecracker123 If it were your beloved lefty Lib Dems singing 70 million Bollocks to Boris and his cabinet you'd no doubt think it was a hoot
That's the best bloody post I've read for a long time, brilliant