Sir Philip Rutnam's resignation

Don't be ridiculous, MOnica

What a silly comment M0nica

MOnica Your grandparents obviously found some way out of poverty and very possibly instilled that in their own children. There are children who aren't encouraged at home. As Maizie said, teachers and others working with children work very hard to widen their outlook. It's one of the purposes of the Pupil Premium.

Strangely enough, it's often older people who think that poor children should have fewer opportunities. They think that what was appropriate for them should be appropriate for younger people. I don't know how many parent/staff meetings I sat in, when one parent said the didn't see why their offspring should learn x, y or z because they didn't when they were at school and they've got through life OK.

The school (secondary) I worked in certainly did not expect anybody to fail. There was a lot of support for all pupils. We tried very hard to make them confident that they could become valued members of society.

The job market today bears no resemblance to that of 50/60 years ago. Most people would have worked in manufacturing- often this meant a job for life. The difficulty is that the people are still there but the jobs have gone.

I don't think we have done much to support youngsters when they leave school. I believe apprenticeships are coming back but they don't always seem to be well organized. Neighbours of mine have an 18 year old son. He started a painting/decorating course. It lasted six weeks only and now he cannot find a job. I can't see how a six week course can give a painter/decorator all the qualifications he would need.

I would love to take people who think they have all the answers into a class of year 6 in a deprived area and just leave them there. They wouldn't last an hour!

Again looking back to the past, the concept of 'family' was very different. Until relatively recently it was Mother, Father and children, possibly extended family. The Church played a big part in daily life. All this has moved on rapidly and schools are expected to parent and educate.

It is not the people on the work face, teachers and the like, that are the problem, on the contrary they are doing everything they can to help children but it is the general atmosphere that surrounds such children in all sections of the media, print online and broadcast. If I thought teachers were the problem I would have said so - and I didn't.

Among those well meaning people, the fatalistic posters so often read on Gransnet, who want to help but will always talk of all the problems facing these children. The messages on the media print, online, broadcast, is always of the problems . This knowledge permeates their lives like a miasma. Children are quick to pick up the message that they are seen as having no prospects or chances of getting out of poverty and becoming self-fulfilling prophecies.

I am sorry I have little time for nostalgia and the looking back through rose-tinted spectacles at a past that is a 2 whole generations away from today's young people. This idea that in the past everyone was married and churchgoers and that the vicar was always there to solve any problem, forget it, it never happened. 2 of my grandparents were conceived out of wedlock although one managed to be born with in it. The other was orphaned at 10 and was taken in by relations and at work by 12.

Trisher,
Ha ha ha, you are SO right there. Surprisingly many people today quote the old ‘Those that can do, do, those that can’t do teach.’ I’d love to see some of them in a deprived area teaching the full curriculum to any age. They’d be mincemeat in less than an hour!

Sorry, I guess that’s off thread.

I think you were being the nostalgic one there, MOnica, with your tale of your grandparents lifting themselves out of poverty. Those opportunities aren't so easily come by these days, as I was trying to point out.

And, however much you try to diss it, life was much more straightforward and, dare I say it, emotionally secure, for most children in the past. If you knew about the family circumstances of some of the children I worked with you'd be amazed that they were still all in one piece, let alone stable, secure and ready to learn. I expect others who have worked in schools could tell you much the same thing.

This started with a comment about whether very deprived children could imagine what other people's lives are like and I claimed that I don't think they do. They might read about them in the media or see TV soaps and think they know what it's like to be a celeb or a member of the royal family or whatever, but I doubt if they do.

I've done the opposite from what most people seem to have experienced, in that I've gone from "riches to rags" (not literally), but the last few years have been an eye opener to me. People growing up in different circumstances do have a very different perspective on the world. Some of the posts even on GN are evidence of that.

I doubt very much if many of the current bunch of MPs know what it's really like to struggle on a low income, in an insecure job and housing. I don't expect they know what it's like not to be able to afford private medical procedures or medicines. Some GN posters certainly don't and I don't think we have any cabinet ministers on here.

Monica, I didn't say every thing in the past was lovely and the vicar would sort it all out. I said there has been a rapid moving away from certain structures coupled with technology and rabid consumerism. The children who turn up at school pasty faced and grubby may have been up half the night on an ipad.

Why would some of us posters be mincemeat in a class of year 6 children. That's a serious question btw. Would the children be unruly and badly behaved generally or have difficulty concentrating due to lack of good sleep and good nutrition? Would there be cultural issues? Internet bullying? 6Hormones? I'm interested to know what is getting between children and their maximising the opportunity a good education could offer. What needs to change? I suspect there's more to it than just throwing money at the problem.

Growstuff, with regard to life experience among children from different backgrounds I agree with you and would like to add that's why it's so important children learn empathy from children's literature.

Jane, have you been in a school recently? They would gave you on a butty.

Greymar you've missed my point. What exactly would 'they' do? Incidentally, I've worked in special units and prisons. Don't assume I'm some sort of dainty flower!

So sorry but why the question? There is no typical upper Primary school on the UK. I suppose some of the potential problems would be connected to location. A complete lack of respect for other children and adults, an over inflated sense of entitlement, additional needs, poor or no boundaries at home, not being safe or cared for or fed. These are a few reasons.

Well let's start with them ignoring you and just messing about, move on to one child winding up another who he knows has a short fuse and who starts throwing things around, meantime a couple of others start a fight over a ruler. You try to get thrower to calm down, he tells you to F* off and runs out the classroom. A ring gathers around the fighters egging them on. Some of the girls produce mirrors and hairbrushes and start doing each others hair. And they have been in the classroom for five minutes. It's literacy and you are supposed to be teaching non fiction report writing for an hour.
I don't suppose you had sole charge of 30 prisoners at a time who didn't like you being there, wanted their regular teacher back and wonder if they can make you cry or just leave.

It's not a competition Trisher and Greymar. I don't suppose your life has been in danger in the line of work if it comes to that. However, your description of exactly what is going on is illustrative. Sounds like those children just ignore you? Very frustrating especially as education is their best chance of escaping their circumstances. Obviously, any chance of this starts, most likely, prior to birth. Sure start schemes were sensible ways to approach this. We used to be able to do so much more. Sigh.

Donald said that he wanted to drain the swamp; it needs doing here too.

I know we are past this, but I can’t get over that this disgusting comment was left to stand.

Best ignored, really, Summerlove. It shows what rational posters have to contend with...

Sorry, I have no idea why competition is mentioned.

I asked a couple of times who would be ideally drained away. Nobody had the guts to answer.

I think, Greyamar, that Jane10 is treating yours and trisher's remarks about schools as if you were trying to outdo her experience with prisoners.. 'Reverse boasting' so to speak..

Having worked in many schools with serious deprivation and social issues I am quite happy about my professional expertise Jane10 and you didn't ask what happened when I was in the classroom, you asked why would posters be unable to cope? I wouldn't question your abilities I wonder why you feel the need to question mine?