We don't need our farmers and fishermen

Callistemon The Corn Laws were hugely important in the nineteenth century. They meant importing more grain from the US, cheaper food for the masses (increasing numbers of city/town dwellers) and less profit for landowners/farmers.

They were responsible for the growing importance of cities such as Manchester, which in the early 19th century wasn't represented in Parliament.

Should have written "repeal" of the Corn Laws.

growstuff - I've changed my POV about what you said about UK being selfsupporting during WW2 and now partly agree with you .
I know about the war in the Atlantic, my Dad was in a RN ship trying to protect the brave Merchant Navy ships from Nazi bombers and Uboats.
Probably, as Maizie wrote, they were bringing mainly grain from Canada and the US, which we're still dependent on for our daily bread. Our country is too small to provide enough grain for our needs.
I also know about the food shortages in those days of rationing, but on the bright side few cases of obesity!
I'm not so worried about meat, but we still need fresh fruit and veg. to kep us healthy.
Our local Tesco has most of their veg. from british growers.
Then as others have said -who is going to pick them?
As a sideline, french farmers also have serious problems, in spite of the subsidies from the EU.

The merchant navy brought much more than grain. They brought millions of tons of tinned goods, arms, farm machinery and fuel. The country couldn't have survived without the imports.

People sometimes have the idea that the UK was totally isolated from the rest of the world during the war. It wasn't, although sea travel was obviously very dangerous.

Churchill was worried about the war in the Atlantic and was concerned that if the German U-boats had damaged any more shipping, the war could have been lost. Until 1942, the UK was still importing quantities of goods from Australia and New Zealand. We also exported to the Soviet Union via a very dangerous route.

The merchant navy sustained a higher casualty rate during WW2 than almost any other branch of the armed services, which is often forgotten.

I think I must have learnt something about the Corn Laws in the end growstuff as I got a good result in my GCE History, or perhaps I avoided that question.

Maybe you did . I find them fascinating (I know -sad). Repealing the Corn Laws changed the balance between town and country in the UK for ever. The Industrial Revolution meant that the urban population was growing. They couldn't grow their own food, so depended on the price of British grain for their bread. Repealing the Corn Laws meant that the UK imported US grain with low tariffs and meant the price of bread remained relatively stable and low. It also meant that farmers lost some of their traditional power as gentry.

The problem with abandoning a basic industry like agriculture, is that your foreign suppliers have you over a barrel on price and condirions of supply.

There was an illustration of this on the news this morning.

India is the main world producer of generic medicines. The ones most of us take on a regular basis and includes pain killers like paracetamol. Today India announced that it is restricting the export of these items as with a Covid-90 pandemic imminent, it is keeping these products in India for its own inhabitants. India's population is 1.4 billion.

Thank you growstuff

Actually, I did learn about the Corn Laws but, for some reason, the syllabus then only went up to 1832 so I didn't know they had been repealed. Presumably others who took 'A' level History would have carried on from 1832. I couldn't wait to drop it but now find it all much more interesting.

1832. The year of The Great Reform Act. I am reading about it (and the Corn Laws, and Catholic Emancipation) at the moment

IMO it's downright stupid to abandon home-grown agriculture for the reasons mentioned above. It's also pretty stupid not to realise that grain can be produced much more cheaply and efficiently on US prairies and winter salad crops can be produced without artificial heating/lighting in Spain. That's why countries need trade. We scratch each other's backs.

There are acres and acres of polytunnels in Spain where the salad crops are grown. It may be warmer, of course, but they are still under polythene.
Costa del Polythene as it is now known, visible from space.

They're grown hydroponically, which means they need less water. There are acres of hydroponic tunnels in South East Hertfordshire (and probably other areas too). They need more electricity than Spanish tunnels because there isn't as much natural warmth and light. It's still cheaper to produce tomatoes in Spain than it is in the UK, especially during winter months. Spain also has lower wages, which will increasingly be an issue if low paid workers are prevented from coming to the UK.

There is a gigantic greenhouse complex on the Isle of Thanet in Kent www.thanetearth.com/. West Sussex has the largest concentration of glass houses in Britain. We used to drive through them, when visiting my parents who lived in the area in retirement.

Green houses (glass?) Good, polytunnels Bad, surely?

We just shouldn't be using all that plastic.

I notice our local fruit farm now seems to be re-using the plastic on the poly tunnels for early fruit. It gets pealed back in summer and dragged back over when summer comes.

Apparently we import wheat from Canada and export our wheat to them. Different wheats for different things. I just though wheat is wheat! We probably could grow enough food to feed everyone but if we have to live on what we grown here our diet will become quite boring. Really, really boring!

(I got my seasons muddled there! - When winter comes. Idiot!)

The UK hasn't lived on what we grow here for hundreds of years. The only way the UK could be even close to self-sufficient would be by adopting new farming techniques.

Interesting twitter thread on the effects of intensive farming (fields, rather than under cover) on soil and water retention. I think it's relevant to this discussion

(and no, your computer doesn't get infected with deadly viruses if you open a link to twitter)

twitter.com/denny_robert/status/1234792688161099776

The UK could easily feed itself at home today, granted we would not have the choice of produce or many tropical foods that we have today, basic food, it could be done.

That is not the choice we face today, do we want food produced to UK standards or to lower standards from overseas. After WW1 farming went into steep decline with the cheapest option from across the globe imported, nobody considered welfare, or growth promoters or the environment. Much farmland went out of production almost to a subsistence level, then came WW2 the UK had no farming infrastructure, only with massive imports of machinery was it able to recover.

The CAP is designed to ensure Europe is self sufficient in most commodities, it has been very successful, not only can we feed ourselves but we can improve quality and environmental standards as well. Those higher standards have to be paid for and the cost is passed on in higher prices, even so food has never been cheaper, the average worker has to work less hours to feed the family than ever before.

This has been achieved by farms being much more efficient, larger units selling direct to the supermarkets, those retailers becoming closely involved in the production methods and standards. You can compare it with “just in time” you hear about in factory production.

If UK production is reduced some foods could easily be sourced overseas, Wheat, Chilled meat are two examples, tropical fruit would not change, it is fresh food that would cause problems. If it is not grown here Europe is the only alternative, so vegetables, potatoes and salads would be grown in Eastern Europe or the Mediterranean.

We will again be dependent on others to feed the nation, maybe you don’t care about that as long as it is cheap. If that is the case should hope that the EU stays together, if it splits up into countries or regions that are fighting each other for advantage, the risk of conflict and supply disruption increases.

On one hand Brexit is about independence on the other we are becoming more dependent on others for supplies of all sorts.

Perhaps this link that I first posted about a year ago has renewed interest www.iddri.org/en/publications-and-events/study/agroecological-europe-2050-multifunctional-agriculture-healthy-eating

It's summary states:

SUSTAINABLE FOOD FOR 530 MILLION EUROPEANS
The TYFA scenario is based on generalising agroecology, abandoning imports of plant proteins and adopting healthier diets by 2050. Despite an induced decline in production of 35% compared to 2010 (in Kcal), this scenario:

– feeds Europeans healthily while maintaining export capacity;
– reduces Europe’s global food footprint;
– results in a 40% reduction in agricultural GHG emissions;
– and helps to restore biodiversity and to protect natural resources.

- which is what most of us want.

Hydroponic Glasshouses. There is one near me, very efficient, all the waste goes into an anaerobic digester which produces methane to heat the greenhouse and produce electricity for lighting. They produce tomatoes year round cheaper than imported, if you get the chance organize a tour for a group they would be delighted to show you. Cheaper Labour in Spain is a myth they don’t want to do manual work any more than UK workers

NfkD I think that Canadian wheat combined with wheat grown in the UK is combined to make bread. It makes the best flour when mixed. We only import a small percentage of wheat.

Davidhs we have not been self-sufficient In food production for about 250 years.
Could we do so - I am not so sure.
Do we want to? No, because we are used to eating a variety of foods and people would be resistant to going back to a restricted diet.
Because, too, we want to export foods and drink where we produce a surplus and trade deals are usually reciprocal.

We may be an island but we do not want to become insular.

I disagree with you Davidhs that the UK could easily be self-sufficient in food, without dramatic increases in yields through various techniques. Somehow or other, the country would need to double the amount of food it produces. That would likely involve agri-businesses, using more intensive farming, more chemicals and GM.

In any case, the government seems determined to do the opposite. It can't be a coincidence that the statement by the adviser about agriculture and fishing not being important coincides with the reduction in subsidies to farmers.

Callistemon I was trying to find the last time the UK was self-sufficient in food. I found an article stating that we imported very little during the Napoleonic Wars, but there was widespread starvation when the harvests failed. I think we'd probably have to go back the the Middle Ages. Even then, we imported spices from the Far East.