New Labour LEADER

Can you explain how it is consistent to support the LP but not support the unions which fund and underpin the party?

Are you saying he who pays the piper calls the tune? That sounds distinctly undemocratic.

M0nica, in regard to your above post, the Parliamentary Labour Party are part of the Broader Labour movement in the country of which the trades unions are also a part.

For evidence to the above just look at the structure of the Labour Party National Executive where the trades unions hold a large number of seats on that body along with other affiliate organisations.

Grandad1943 are you agreeing that the unions have a large number of seats on the National Executivebecause they fund and underpin the party?

Below is a breakdown of seats on the Parliamentary Labour Party National Executive along with the organisations and affiliate organisations that hold those seats.

As can be seen, the Labour Party is very much an integral part of the wider labour movement which very much includes the trade unions.

List of seats begins here which was as attended prior to the coronavirus closedown:-

Chair: Andi Fox
Vice-Chair: Ian Murray
Leader: Jeremy Corbyn MP
Deputy Leader: VACANT
Treasurer: Diana Holland
Chair of Equalities: Ann Henderson
Shadow Frontbench: Jon Trickett MP
Shadow Frontbench: Rebecca Long-Bailey MP
Shadow Frontbench: Diane Abbott MP
Shadow Scottish Frontbench: Richard Leonard MSP
Welsh Labour Representative: Mick Antoniw AM
Young Labour: Lara McNeill
BAME Labour: Vacant
Div. I – Trade Unions: Mark Ferguson (Unison)
Div. I – Trade Unions: Howard Beckett (Unite)
Div. I – Trade Unions: Andi Fox (TSSA)
Div. I – Trade Unions: Pauline McCarthy (Bakers)
Div. I – Trade Unions: Michael Wheeler (Usdaw)
Div. I – Trade Unions: Wendy Nichols (Unison)
Div. I – Trade Unions: Andy Kerr (CWU)
Div. I – Trade Unions: Tom Warnett (GMB)
Div. I – Trade Unions: Jayne Taylor (UNITE)
Div. I – Trade Unions: Kathy Abu-Bakir (GMB)
Div.I – Trade Unions: Ian Murray (FBU)
Div. I – Trade Unions: Mick Whelan (ASLEF)
Div. I – Trade Unions: Joanne Cairns (USDAW)
Div. II – Socialist Societies: James Asser
Div. III – CLPs: Huda Elmi
Div. III – CLPs: Yasmin Dar
Div. III – CLPs: Rachel Garnham
Div. III – CLPs: Ann Henderson
Div. III – CLPs: Jon Lansman
Div. III – CLPs: VACANT
Div. III – CLPs: VACANT
Div. III – CLPs: Darren Williams
Div. III – CLPs: Pete Willsman
Div. IV – Labour Councillors: Nick Forbes
Div. IV – Labour Councillors: Alice Perry
Div. V – PLP/EPLP: George Howarth MP
Div. V – PLP/EPLP: Margaret Beckett MP
Div. V – PLP/EPLP: Shabana Mahmood MP

In addition, the PLP Shadow Chief Whip (Nick Brown MP), and PLP Chair (John Cryer MP) attend ex-officio without a vote.

The phrase "Broader Labour Movement" is one you use a lot Grandad. What exactly do you mean? Surely the important movement is the people who actually vote for Labour, which enables the party to form a government.

The trades unions have approximately six million members, many of whom aren't even traditionally "working class". The MPs of any political party in power need over 14 million supporters.

The structure of the Labour Party National Executive isn't written in stone. If the interests of six million are dominant, they're not representing the majority of supporters. Politically, trades unions are lobbying groups in the same way as groups such as the CBI are.

M0nica, the Labour Party and the trades unions are both part of one Labour movement in the United Kingdom.

You haven't answered MOnica's question - or, at least, you seem to be confirming what she's suggesting.

So are other organisations, such as the Fabian Society.

growstuff the Broader Labour Movement is a wide-based socialist organisation which is governed and maintained by those who join and contribute to its upkeep.

In the above, it is no different from the Conservative Party or the LibDems in its relationship to the overall electorate in Britain.

We know that billionaires help keep the Tory show on the road, so would we agree that these tax dodgers should have direct influence in tory party policy?

So surely it is exactly the same argument with Labour and the unions.

I think I am probably arguing for a different form of funding, but that is for another day.

For any party to get into government it needs votes from all areas of society.

growstuff there are many organisations that belong to the Labour movement which would include such organisations as the Fabian Society if they affiliate.

In recent years those organisations have even been allowed representation at the Labour Party Annual Delegate Conference which is the supreme policy-making body for the whole movement.

To win power you have to have a credible candidate, credible policies and support of the centre ground, talk of a socialist movement is misplaced. That’s why Blair won and Corbyn lost wether there were judged a success or failure is another matter, they had their chance.
My own view is that none of the PMs in my time has been a success they all could have done much more, easily.

M0nica the key word is underpin I think. They undoubtedly fund the LP but the roots of the policies of socialism and workers rights which are the basis of the LP are also the roots and basis of the Trade Union movement. It always amuses me when people question the position of Trade Unions, which as they represent 6 mill people are the broadest body influencing any political party, but are happy to ignore individuals and small companies influencing and funding other parties. I know which I find the most threatening. I also think anyone criticising should reflect what conditions for working people would be like had there been no unions. Zero hours contracts would only be the beginning. Conditions and pay would be dreadful.

trisher you are right, but the unions don’t own the Labour Party, it is a democratic organisation

I’ve been wondering where the next lot of announcements are, but I forgot that Starmer is at a cobra meeting this morning.

Agreed Bluecat well said and Jaycee5 The dear man JC will be missed Let's see how Starmer does as new leader.

trisher I don't think the trades unions are necessarily representative of socialists. I was a member of a trade union all my working life (a print union, a teachers' union and Unison) and I can't say I witnessed much solidarity. Only a few days ago, a GNer attacked teachers, who make up a high percentage of trade union members. The in-fighting between unions was astonishing.

I witnessed unions who didn't really connect with their members and "activists" with generous salaries, who weren't truly representing anybody.

Lots of big words Grandad and I'm sure they all have lots of meetings. What is needed is a Labour Party which appeals to those who don't care about policies and procedures, which can win elections.

You think Jess Phillips is “poison”? What’s happened to trying to be nice to each other in these difficult times? I don’t think we need trolls on Gransnet

I thank you for all your comments, they have been very helpful to me. As a self-confessed floating voter, I had found myself in December 2019 in the position of not feeling I could vote for either of the main parties.

I had looked and listened to Keir Starmer and felt that here was a leader who was a person of integrity, had life experience in bucketfuls and was not just a career politician. I also felt that he had a vision of a possible new way of politics and even of society post Covid-19.

But, having read most of the comments on the 13 pages of this thread, if this is a cross-section of the the issues facing him, I wish him well but no longer feel so optimistic.

I am left with the impression that a shiny new face has been erected, like a fresh poster on a billboard, just papering over the issues that have been chewed over for all of my lifetime; the old chestnut of the north/south divide, prejudice against perceived privilege, university education, intelligence, titles - even those awarded for merit. But mainly for me, opening the huge can of worms that is the overwhelming power and influence wielded by the unions.

I will wait to be convinced but sadly, for me, this is no longer a new dawn.

Whitewave the unions don’t own the Labour Party but it seems they own, the purse strings .

He who pays the piper !

*annie that’s why I think that political funding should be looked at and changed.

I must look at how the row do it. In democratic countries I mean.

MagicWand can I ask why you are afraid of unions? Any power and influence they have is wielded democratically and in the interests of their members who are ordinary working people. Are you afraid of strikes? And have you never had a job where you felt you should join a union? I'm asking because I was raised to believe in unions, and worked in a job where it was advisable to join one so I really don't understand.

But mainly for me, opening the huge can of worms that is the overwhelming power and influence wielded by the unions.

What is it about the 'power and strength' of the unions that you fear, MagicWand?

Are you comfortable with the 'power and strength' of the big businesses and money laundering Russian oligarchs who fund the tory party?

With people like this? The guy who left BHS workers with minimal or no pension...

I quote the first 2 tweets from the thread I've linked to because I find the figures quite staggering...

Imagine being born at the same time as Jesus and you were given £1,000 every day, which you stashed under the mattress. Even if you lived until today, two millennia later, you still wouldn't be a billionaire - like Sir Philip Green, the boss of Arcadia who bought and closed BHS.
If you had been given £5,000/day, you still wouldn't be as wealthy as Philip and Tina Green, whose net worth is £5.2bn.

twitter.com/Marsell0409/status/1245807401229484033

These are the people the tories run the country for...

magic wand, try to read independent reports about Keir Starmer, rather than reach decisions based on comments here

I am a supporter of KS as leader of the. LP. Earlier in this thread, an accurate report of KS involvement with the Saville scandal was summarised, I think, by whitewave. KS ran the DPP well, his legal work from the start of his career has been of a very high standard. He did so much ProBono work as a young Barrister, the head of his Chambers warned him to do some paid work or he'd never get a mortgage.
He's trustworthy and has integrity. He's also very bright