George Floyd Protests in Hyde Park

Sparkling ???well said.
Churchill wasn’t universally liked but he was the right man to get us through the war.Being a PM in wartime means making hard choices ....not doing things to be popular.

growstuff I agree with a large part of your essay.

Black people will always be at a disadvantage in a white country even though they were born there.....they shouldn’t be but that’s another story.

Lois I agree with your last two posts about Grenfell Towers,
It had nothing whatever to do with racism, and it seems lazy thinking to imagine it was, just because many BAME people lived there.British white people also lived there, also Polish and other EU countries.

I have lived and worked as a housing officer in many parts of the country. Speaking from my experience , you will find people of all ethnicities living in sub standard accommodation. When Lancaster West Estate was built, as I am sure you know, it was as a result of demolishing sub-standard Victorian houses. They were originally family homes often 3 storied and had been built for the middle classes, when those moved out , onwards and upwards to better things, those properties were sub-divided into what we now call HIMO'S. They quickly became slums and as part of slum clearances were demolished. The flats/maisonettes/tower blocks built to replace them were then thought of as being a step up.They were in fact often far better than the old houses they replaced, but what also happened was that communities were dispersed and no-one knew their neighbour anymore. There was no sense of community .
If you look at Trellick Tower , that is a listed building ! People actually want to live in it , well that is beyond me as well. I would hate to live in a tower block. I would also suggest that Grenfell only became substandard when the cladding was put on; had it been left as the architect intended ,would the fire have rapidly taken hold?
The facts are that social housing , generally, has been underfunded for years. No local authority has large house building programmes, people who have to rely on social housing have little choice about where they live, Yes, I understand all too well how poor people feel about where they live, why they have little choice, how money talks and gives opportunity. Yes, I feel angry about people having to live in overcrowded circumstances , but I would not suggest that Grenfell was substandard APART FROM THE CLADDING. Sorry to shout but that is what went wrong.
I have spent nearly all of my working life as housing officer, my family lived in the East End for about a century and a half. I understand the frustrations of knowing that money makes everything better.
For the record the people who lived in Grenfell would have been dealt with under the homeless legislation, people who live in luxury blocks are unlikely to have needed to present as homeless. Most of us who are commenting on this would have home insurance and would have been offered help through our insurance companies. Only poor people , people without resources look to the local authority to house them when homeless.
If we are going to be angry about social housing then can we look at what has happened in recent years, the selling off at huge discounts under the RTB, the lack of funding, the awful state of privately rented accommodation generally, the ridiculous assured shortholds which replaced protected tenancies .
Sorry, but I could write an essay on it a sI know so much about the subject,
To answer your question; lack of opportunity has caused lots of the problems and that takes money to fix it.

Loislovestewie Many years ago I lived in the area too.

Nobody is suggesting anybody deliberately caused the Grenfell fire. However, why do so many people from BAME backgrounds live in substandard housing?

Do you think people would have been treated differently in the aftermath, if Grenfell had been a luxury block?

Can you really not see it from the perspective of the people who live in the area and how they can see for themselves how different their lives are from those living just a short distance to the south?

I agree it's not just about race, but a whole range of social divisions, but it is a fact that people from some ethnic backgrounds have worse life outcomes than others. Why do you think that is?

There is bubbling resentment and anger, which has not (and still isn't) being addressed about a number of issues. Grenfell is just one of them.

It's too early to explain to you why there is institutional racism in the UK. Maybe I'll try when I've had another coffee or two. On the other hand, I think it's going to be a nice day and I'm not that keen on bashing my head against a brick wall.

PS. Germany could never have invaded the UK and held its position. The aim of the Blitz was to damage the UK's capacity to build armaments, not as a precursor to invasion. Germany might have succeeded if the US hadn't supplied the UK and the allies with equipment.

Sparkling I get my history from real history books not films or individual speeches.

Please can people stop saying or implying that th tragedy at Grenfell Tower was caused by racism. the fact that many of the deceased were BAME doesn't make the tragedy a racist act. That area of the RBKC is full of different ethnicities and the residents of Grenfell are representative of the area . We aren't talking about Grenfell being fire bombed by white supremacists but rather the incompetence of people who thought that putting cladding on a building was a good idea and not considering the implications. It was done to look pretty.
For information , many years ago I worked for RBKC and dealt with the repairs to Lancaster West Estate . I know the area , the make up of people who live there and Grenfell Tower. I always said I wouldn't live in Grenfell , not because I thought it would go up in flames, but because the lifts were always breaking down and I thought that it was a god-awful way to live. Being in a tower block with kids is a nightmare and the people who think it's ideal must be mad. The maisonettes nearby were a different matter and I would have been happy to live there.
I feel immensely for the many people who died in that tower block, incompetence on that scale knows no boundaries , but I don't believe it to be racist. I suspect that I will now be rounded on for that .

Why don't you check the history Growstuff. Operation Sea Lion also the speech Their Finest Hour, better still, it's easier, watch the film The Darkest Hour, starting Gary Oldman, which tells exactly how we were in imminent danger if invasion, that evacuation plans in collaboration with King George were underway.
How can you say we are rascist, look who's in the cabinet in high positions. Slavery, long gone, you cant keep rehashing old grievances, the little children going up chimneys, cleaning under looms and down mines from 5 years old, are we to have a witch hunt next on those families that got their wealth from that, my own grandmother in service from 11 years of age, it's not where you started but where you end up, I had a good career as a woman, loads were bkwating on about women couldn't get on, but look how many have.
Pleased to hear that PA lives in Scotland, I have lovely friends there, that don't share her views about the English, why she thinks the Scots were innocent in the Slave Trade I don't know. I don't comment again on the riots , but will say once more those that caused such violence against our country and policemen, I hope they throw the book at them. We are democratic, bullying is not to be tolerated for any reason, it surely contradicts why they were protesting.

Article about Scotland's involvement in the slave trade:

www.blackhistorymonth.org.uk/article/section/history-of-slavery/scotland-and-slavery/

FarNorth I agree with you that no black person living in a "white" country should be at a disadvantage. I think it's quite an extraordinary claim.

Many black people have been born in the UK, as have many people from white non-UK backgrounds.

Why are second generation white people not at the same disadvantage as black people? The only difference is the colour of their skin and (maybe) certain physical and genetic characteristics.

sparklingsilver Why do you think the public voted against Churchill in 1945?

It's a myth that he was honoured and loved by everybody. These days, as historians look at his contribution more dispassionately, he is seen as extremely important but not some kind of hero.

Churchill's own writing made it clear that he had racist views and his actions in Wales, India etc are becoming better known.

I'm not saying he was a bogeyman, but nor was the hero of mythology.

there have been so many more pressing matters to deal with.

In the last couple of months, maybe. Could time not have been found before then, to give it some thought and action?
It clearly can't have been too difficult to get the statue removed quite quickly, it turns out.

Black people living in a white country will always be at a disadvantage,

That shouldn't be so and there's no reason why anywhere should be considered to be a 'white country'.

Scotland has its own connections with slavery, still recalled today in the streets named after such men as Buchanan, Glassford, Dunlop, Ingram and also in the grand buildings they erected.

Scots businessmen wasted no time after the Treaty of Union in 1707 in taking advantage of their new access to the English colonies to trade in tobacco, based on slave labour. The Tobacco Lords also traded in sugar and cotton, and many Scotsmen migrated to the Caribbean plantations to profit from the opportunities slavery afforded them there.

Whatever you may believe he was Britain's inspiring WW2 leader and is honoured and loved. Did he make mistakes during is life-time, yes, he no doubt did. But you have perhaps never heard the saying "those who make no mistakes are those who do nothing". As to deliberately leaving Scottish soldiers at Dunkirk, those left behind, of whatever regiment, were those who fought, died and taken prisoner in the rear guard action required in order to enable thousands of troops to be evacuated. And are and should be honoured for the sacrifice they made - Britain's enduring never ending debt. And that shame all those shabby individuals involved in the vandalism and civil disobedience of the last few days.

lemongrove Firstly, my view has always been that the marches could have been stopped on health and safety grounds, although I'm changing my mind on that. My personal view has been that the UK didn't enforce lockdown rigidly enough. There was even a protest in London a couple of weeks ago by people who wanted to lift restrictions. I was tearing my hair out about it then and I do feel that it was unwise for the BLM protests to take place.

However, I also understand the bubbling anger of the people who took part in the BLM protests. Somebody (a black female bishop(?) whose name I've forgotten) said that some black people feel that George Floyd's (and other black people's) lives didn't matter, so what the hell? They're dying anyway, so the risk is worth taking. The Cummings incident didn't help. I don't happen to agree, but I don't agree with the attitude of many people to lockdown.

I can't say I'm sad and definitely not outraged to see that statue pulled down. I think it's massively symbolic and long after the protests themselves have been forgotten, the images of the statue being pushed into the water will endure. When people find out the history of Edward Colston, I don't see how anybody can seriously defend that it should have been there in the first place. I've been to Bristol on a city break and remember the statue, although I didn't really know who he was. I do now and that's a good thing.

Nothing is ever black and white (maybe not the best phrase in the circumstances, but I can't think of a better one), so maybe the positive which will come out of these protests will be that people are more aware of Colston and even Churchill. I think there are some people (eg Farage & Co) who had hoped to stir up a backlash and divide people. I sense that has happened to an extent, but on balance people agree with the aims of BLM.

Nobody objected to a statue of Jimmy Savile being removed, despite the charity work he did.

The government now needs to look seriously at the Grenfell and Windrush reports. It needs to take the Marmot Review off the shelves and consider how it's going to take its recommendations about inequalities forward. It needs to do the same with the Public Health England report on how COVID-19 is affecting BAME people disproportionately. I doubt if there will be much change in attitudes in the short term, but it needs to acknowledge racism and commit itself to change in the long term.

Sorry! I don't intend for that to be an essay.

Sparkling I live in England but I don't "honour" Churchill. Nor did many of the men who fought in WW2. He was a racist reactionary who thought women shouldn't have the vote "Women are well represented by their husbands, fathers and brothers." He witnessed concentration camps in S. Africa, thought the Kurds should be gassed, sent the Black and Tans into Ireland and refused to help in an Indian famine. He has been raised to icon status through the media but the facts are still there and in working class communities the stories are still told.

GRANDPARENTS sPARKLING who were there when Churchill sent Tanks into Glasgow against Scottish people an dlocked the Scottish regiments in the barracks to stop them from taking sides with their countrymen .
The facts are all available if you look ,he set troops on the Irish and the Welsh too ,his record in the war was flawed in the extreme ,tens of thousands of Scottish soldiers left behind on the beaches of Dunkirk .....strange that is was JUST Scottish soldiers dont you think,,His attitude to the people of the Indian continent is well documented ...but largely ignored .
I am Scottish not British ,never have been never will be ,only by the reason that Scotland is housed on the island of Great Britain .British is not a nationality

Those in authority should have had it removed a long time ago

Probably, but as the elected Mayor, Marvin Rees, said on the local television news this evening, there have been so many more pressing matters to deal with.
It offended him too but perhaps it wasn't considered a priority on the list.

I don’t think SNP members consider Scotland to be part of the UK Sparkling ....even though it is.

Haha! paddyanne lives in Scotland, that well known Utopia.
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Sparkling In fact, the UK was never within a hair's breath of being invaded. Hitler never had the resources to invade Britain.

I'm not going to repeat myself. Churchill had distinctly racist views.

Paddy Anne, is there nothing you like about the uK.? You never miss a chance to knock it. I presume you don’t live here. Your sum up of Churchill is your view and your prejudiced gp friend. We here honour him for helping us win the war, we were within a hairs breathe if being invaded or didn’t you know that, would you rather Hitler got here? It made me feel sick seeing that mob attacking our police, our police are there for our protection and we don’t like seeing them abused. This Pandemic in the Uk has taken a heavy toll. What a way to thank the NHS and essential workers. I hope the people responsible for criminal damage get the toughest justice, I would consider taking them to court for putting them at risk, no 2 metre rule. You must let me know what perfect country you live in.

ev yes