There has been much talk about the slogan ‘Black Lives Matter‘ with many people saying instead that all lives matter. I think it’s a good topic for debate and to gain understanding.
To me, saying ‘all lives matter‘ is to deny that racism exists. It denies the experience of many black people who are not treated as white people would have been. Think of the man who achieved the highest office in America. Would anyone have raised the ‘birther’ question had Barack Obama been white? Saying all lives matter also closes down debate on the issue, suggesting that the very particular problems black communities experience are no different from that of anyone else therefore we shouldn’t talk or do anything about it.
The term ‘black lives matter‘ is not saying that only black lives matter. It means that black lives matter as much as other lives, whether that is in the undue violence meted out to the black community, the discrimination they face in healthcare , employment and housing and in many, many other ways.
I’ll put a link on the next post, explaining why saying all lives matter is wrong. If you only look at one item, please watch All Plates Matter. It sums it up in two minutes. Be part of the solution and not part of the problem.
Liberty, Equality, Fraternity. Which is what I was taught in 1950 in school.
Didn't get very far with this motto did we ?
If people stopped talking about racism there wouldn't be any such thing !
Could you explain that for me please? I am reading it as if we ignore something/don't talk about it it isn't there?? Is that what you meant?
Almostelderly, I mentioned that on another thread with Afzal Nazir having done his best as prosecuting barrister who got no back-up from our police.
Has anyone mentioned the Rochdale Grooming Gang? The gang of predominantly Pakistani men who were terrorising vulnerable, white working class girls, young girls with no voice? The police were reluctant to pursue the investigation into the gang, the authorities were afraid of being branded 'racist'.
Ignorance is the problem. If children are taught from infancy to accept each other and that teaching is carried on it would help to stop racism.
It is happening more and more I believe but needs to go much further.
Both my daughters have best friends who are black or Asian.
My grandchildren also love and accept their 'friends of colour'.
As these people are dear friends they do not understand racism and are appalled by it.
Education at school and in the home is the only way to stop racism going forward.
Just think of all the white people joining this protest, so very many.If it was just a protest at what happened in Minneapolis that’s one thing, but for those demanding changes, I would say ‘changes to what’?
I agree Nonny
I can’t see what more can be done here, we have laws in place for racial/equality/ hate speech etc and there has been no end of books, programmes and education generally to promote racial harmony.
You can’t force people to change their thoughts, but you can have the right protections in place, and be prepared to
enforce them when black people report a racial crime.
I would like to hear what more is possible....but in the UK I doubt there is anything else more.
Why is no one offering a solution? On the lunchtime news they interviewed 2 well known black people and asked them what do but mostly they talked about the cause. The only suggestion by one of them is that we all be taught the history but the other thought that was wrong because then black people would think of themselves as coming from slave stock.
The UK has come a long way in my lifetime but what should we do now. I'm only talking about UK, I see the US as a backward country in this area.
I do recognise other people have different experiences. And yes I remember Stephen Lawrence.
Yes the protests in Minneapolis have had an effect but it was their issue to deal with.
Let’s hope the protests will have been worth it if there’s a rise in infection rates.
And what did destroying a statue of man who has been dead 200 years achieve? 15 minutes of fame on TV.
Stephen Lawerence wasn't institutional that was very much a racial killing. Which his mum has campaigned tirelessly to bring those responsible to prison. Doesn't make it right far from it.
Rosalyn I'm with you on this I grew up with all ethnic groups. I know lots have gone on to have great careers. It doesn't mean to say they haven't come across racislist but to my knowledge jealousy and bullying and some fighting with the other schools was what went on in my school.
I know police work hard with schools because of the attraction of gangs, whose members have to have an iniation test to join said gang this could envolve stabbing or raping.
I think the UK is further forward than parts of America but no means perfect. (Parts that I know)
And of course the media/social media will broadcast the bad parts of the demonstration rather then how peaceful most of it was with social distancing.
Rosalyn surely you must know about Stephen Lawrence? His killers were racist and the police force that investigated it was also found to be racist. Of course there will be areas in life such as you describe where everyone gets along well but Your experience is exactly that - your experience. Other people have different experiences but you don’t seem to be able to recognise that.
From what I saw on tv of the marches, by and large they have been peaceful. The vast majority of people didn’t take part in any violence or illegality.
As for what the marches will achieve - already in Minneapolis they have decided to disband their police department and start again from scratch to hopefully rebuild a better system. www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-52960227
If the protests mean that people start to look at things in a different light, then it will have been worth it.
I’m not sure it shows that people feel strongly. Some might but I’d wager a lot wanted an outing and a chance to make a ruckus. After all lock down is pretty dull.
There were peaceful and socially distanced rallies which got the point across better than ranting and shouting and destroying property.
And apart from a lot of older biddies like us arguing the toss and calling each other names I’m not sure what lasting effect it will have.
Rosalyn69 I would not call you dim but you are certainly missing the point, or perhaps trying to circumvent it.
Of course, there are many examples of people of all races working together amicably and respectfully. However, there are also many examples of people being targeted, verbally and physically, because of their colour, both in the workplace and in public spaces. Many non-white people (and people being perceived as being "foreign") are reluctant to raise issues of discrimination for fear of being labelled "troublemakers", "over-sensitive", or of having a "chip on their shoulders". There is also the casual dismissal of discriminatory practices in recruitment and employment by invoking the offensive "playing the race card" accusation.
As to the protests and the lack of social distancing, it says how strongly people feel that they must demonstrate their outrage, hurt and solidarity, risking their own safety.
Let's face it, many people have ignored the rules for far more trivial reasons. And, when it was quite clear, from the news coming out of other countries, that mass gatherings were a risk to public health, this government allowed the Cheltenham Festival - with an attendance figure of around 250,000 - and the Liverpool/Madrid football match - with an attendance figure of around 54,000 - to go ahead, presumably in the name of profit.
Yes black lives matter is true. I think that we need to remember at this time with such a dreadful virus loose on our planet that we must remember that black lives and white lives matter. It is important that we all distance ourselves at the moment and try to stamp this thing out. In my opinion it is not the time to be demonstrating on the street. This virus can spread to all of us black or white. I understand why those wish to demonstrate, I get that but we must look at the bigger picture just for now. Just saying!
The ugly face of racism.
ellenvanin, - you are so very very wrong. It is only because we now talk about so many sad inequalities that things are (very slowly) starting to change.
Of course, these things must be talked about and aired. Did not talking about the Concentration Camps, prevent them from happening? Did not talking about domestic abuse, peideophilia, sexual abuse at home (none of these were talked about or mentioned in any way for a long time) mean that they did not happen? Of course not.
MadGran, thanks for that little cartoon - it sum it up so very well.
Not able to actually go to the demo in Bristol yesterday (thought it probably not advisable at present times), but accompanied my daughter who drove two of her teenage children there as they wished to go ( so very proud of them). We parked up nearby and it was really wonderful to see so very many young people and young families, all racial groups, going to this. All masked up (back in my day, if you wore a mask at any demonstration you would have been automatically arrested!!), good social distancing most of the time. I was so grateful to all of them as they have given me the first real hope for the future this year.
Seeing the present crisis as one of ‘rioting and destruction’ rather than the overwhelming peaceful protests that are the reality says it all about your prospective.
I may be the dim one here. Maybe I’m missing the point. I know very little about racism. I know I worked in a hospital where my boss and most of his junior doctors were BAME and Chinese or mixed race. We were a team. We all had kids. We all had the same domestic issues. We laughed at the same things. My boss said he was black and I was pink.
All lives matter.
Rioting and destruction won’t solve anything.
Romesh Ranganathan opened his programme last night making just this point and he made it well.
Institutional racism in the UK? We could start with Stephen Lawrence then move on to other areas as mentioned in this link such as education, employment/workplace, and Windrush. Healthcare, too.
www.independent.co.uk/voices/black-history-month-racism-institutional-britain-slavery-education-employment-culture-colonialism-a9170841.html
13th, is a hard watch, but an excellent watch
It's on Netflix at present
Goes a long way to explain BLM
An in-depth look at the prison system in the United States and how it reveals the nation's history of racial inequality.
SueDonim thanks for starting this discussion and Eloethan thanks for saying what i wanted to say.
EllanVanin What an astoundingly naive (I'm trying to be polite here) thing to say - "If people stopped talking about racism there wouldn't be any". Are you serious?
It's like saying "if people stopped talking about corruption/domestic violence/cancer, etc, etc, etc, they wouldn't exist. (I did go on a course at Ruskin once where domestic violence was discussed and one woman objected, saying "In my village, we don't have that sort of thing".)
As I, and others, have said on many occasions, racism exists. That is despite some people (predominantly white people) saying everything is fine now, there's no such thing as racism - only people who are either over-sensitive or who dishonestly use the claim of racism for material gain.
There is evidence that non-white people are discriminated against in employment, education, housing, law, etc, etc. If people can't accept there is systemic discrimination against BAME people in virtually all areas of public life then that is what I call racism.
We can stick together and fight against institutional racism but there's too much discrimination to not go broader then that and just stick to one race. I'm white priveledged so it's ok to abuse me. I think im outta here!!!! Although if anyone can recommend any documents on institutional racism in the UK? Give me a shout.
I have faced racism as an English person living in Scotland but, despite it being unpleasant, it isn’t the institutional racism which has led us to today’s situation. We have white privilege on our side whether we acknowledge it or not.
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