Woke Identitarianism

I get that arguments evolve over time, ww, but I can't see what has evolved in a good way about this argument. In essence, the question is what is more important, a person's character or a person's unchosen and unchangeable characteristics.

I'm ready to be convinced by a good argument on any subject and have changed my mind on many issues over the years as arguments evolved. So far I haven't seen a convincing argument that personal characteristics, in my case typically northern hemisphere pale skin, mousey hair, grey eyes, are more important than my behaviour towards other people.

No need to apologise to me, fennel. It is not my invention.

I'm sorry Baggs but I can't read anything with the use of that word 'woke'.
It clashes with all my feelings for our language and I hate it.

baggs arguments evolve and change over time. That’s the way we progress.

And yet it is the argument I was brought up with by my socialist father.

Baggs I'm about to do something else, so not going to write much.

It's all part of the critical race theory argument. Essentially, the people who advocate the kind of argument in the article do deny institutional racism. It's all part of a much bigger debate. It's an ultra-conservative argument.

PS. Am I allowed to write that? Or will I be jumped again?

What the article is essentially claiming is that racism doesn't exist.

That wasn't how I understood it at all, gs. As I understand it, identitarianism pushes racial differences to the fore as if someone's racial characteristics, over which they have no control, are of greater importance than their personal human characteristics, their character, how they behave.

I give up!

You have been extremely rude to me.

I know David Lammy can't stand Munira Mirza. I can't stand her politics either.

That article is about denying racism and I disagree with it. Unlike the writer of the article, I do thing Black Lives Matters is important. Mirza, Badenoch, Patel and the writer of the article are all trying to say BLM doesn't matter. They're trying to undermine people like David Lammy and nothing will be done.

I must admit that I've never been called names by anybody on GN when I'm on the same side. Absolutely ridiculous!

I'll leave you to it 3nanny6.

Growstuff you are being entirely rude yourself.

Lammy the M.P cannot stand Munira Mirza and her politics and views. Also Priti Patel who was well criticized for assuming she knows all about rascism. She herself was criticized for saying in her speech about the coronavirus how she felt the brunt of racism while at school because she was different and called a"Paki". Everybody said she should not have brought her personal experience into the equation.

I find you patronizing and you are unable to take on board the views I expressed you are blinkered. It is people like yourself that are dangerous because you are denying my view the same views as David Lammy but I expect he is wrong as well.

Maizie I've been following some arguments about critical race theory. Personally, I don't have any time for them. Neither do people like David Olusoga. It's politics for the sake of politics. Nevertheless, people like the writer of that article are dangerous because they deny racism. Racists will jump on it as justification for their bigotry and, lo and behold, racism becomes normalised.

Oh for goodness sake 3nanny6! Why be so rude?

What the article is essentially claiming is that racism doesn't exist. That is the argument that people like Munira Mirza, Priti Patel and Kemi Badenoch are making and will, I am absolutely sure, be reflected in the commission's report. It's a right wing argument, so that nothing needs to be done about racism.

Don't assume what you don't know.

Growstuff : I did read the article I suggest you do the same.

By the way you are probably reading it from your happy perspective where you would not know about black lives matter and colour blindness if it bit you on the bum.

I do like to hear about these so called people who are Johnsons
policy directors so we know what their reports will look like.
Probably like the reports that were done for the residents of "Grenfell" and look at the disgusting treatment of all of them with some still living in temporary accommodation.
That is okay though isn't it lets just pretend it did not happen.

I understand that MaizieD but that is still a quite ridiculous way of advocating " colour blindness" and a cover for let's pretend it's not happening. Of course there are white working class boys (and girls) who also are failing in education and the system so there should be a much more "inclusive" overhaul
of people and young people in general. All of a sudden all we are hearing about is the racism link and backlash as if this country has not had a crisis with child poverty for years which in fact it has, and that is what I meant by my posts.

Glad you agree with my analysis, growstuff

I was at a bit of a loss wading through the verbiage...

3nanny6

Growstuff : I do take some offence to your comments ! Is the article about racism? I did read through it and yes the word racism comes up many times. It also tells people that we should be conscious of rascism.
Present day new found words such as woke etc to bring peoples views as what is happening in the world of racism and class etc is sorry but as I said (yawn yawn yawn) to me.

I have black children and everything that has been done over the last 35 years has been slow it has usually been small steps forward and yes minute progress has been made but still a long way to go. Why do you think the world is in the current crisis we are in right now?
Marcus Rashford certainly got it right and he done it in such a simple and humble way any campaigns need more young men like that.

Rather than taking offence, I suggest you read the article more carefully.

Indeed Maizie, which is precisely what Munira Mirza is doing with the new commission and the Equalities Minister, Kemi Badenoch, will go along with.

It's a familiar alt-right trick to diffuse criticism of inequality.

PS. Munira Mirza is Johnson's policy director and has just had her husband installed as another advisor.

It seems to me, 3nanny6 that the aim of the article is to divert attention from the main theme of the current protests, Black Lives Matter, by advocating 'colour blindness', which has in the past been a cover for 'let's pretend it's not happening', and throwing in a bit of whataboutery by bringing up white working class boys.

Growstuff : I do take some offence to your comments ! Is the article about racism? I did read through it and yes the word racism comes up many times. It also tells people that we should be conscious of rascism.
Present day new found words such as woke etc to bring peoples views as what is happening in the world of racism and class etc is sorry but as I said (yawn yawn yawn) to me.

I have black children and everything that has been done over the last 35 years has been slow it has usually been small steps forward and yes minute progress has been made but still a long way to go. Why do you think the world is in the current crisis we are in right now?
Marcus Rashford certainly got it right and he done it in such a simple and humble way any campaigns need more young men like that.

Sorry terrible grammar.

No it wasnt from HQ , yes you are right Baggs best to ignore. I am not always very good at that. I think there is a discussion to be had about identity politics. I think the lib dems became a bit bogged down in it for example and it cost them some votes. I quite like some of the stuff Trevor Phillip has written and I have seen some interesting things on YouTube with the likes of Douglas Murray. The trouble with this issue is that any discussion on this subject can get taken over by well racism. I think it's ok to say black people are discriminated against and that people from deprived backgrounds have obstacles to achievement, I think its possible to believe both. I think the most important thing I'd that we somehow relearn the idea that not everyone will agree with you and that the most important thing is to keep talking and not just want to win.

Baggs

x posts, gs ?

I don't like identity politics Baggs, but I don't that much like people who argue against it, because they usually have an agenda to ignore real grievances.

I must admit I found the above response amusing. It's actually why people do have grievances.

x posts, gs ?

I think the article is arguing against jumping on any bandwagon.

3nanny6

I took a look at this thread and a glance over the link. Do hope no-body jumps on my opinion but I feel that it is just another writer with an opinion that is jumping on the bandwagon of the already rolling debate/debates in regard of the killing in America and the emotional climate that the world is currently experiencing, sometimes too much long worded long winded jargon shoved down ones throat can be
tiresome (yawn yawn yawn) pardon the pun but yawning
rather than woke.

You appear to be the one who's jumped on a bandwagon. It's the opposite.

I took a look at this thread and a glance over the link. Do hope no-body jumps on my opinion but I feel that it is just another writer with an opinion that is jumping on the bandwagon of the already rolling debate/debates in regard of the killing in America and the emotional climate that the world is currently experiencing, sometimes too much long worded long winded jargon shoved down ones throat can be
tiresome (yawn yawn yawn) pardon the pun but yawning
rather than woke.