Institutional racism in the police?

loislovesstewie is raising some decent points to discuss I feel. I don't know enough about the incident involving the athletes to add anything to the comments made already.

I watched the attacks on our police force as they attempted to prevent gatherings/block parties for example that are illegal during the current covid crisis. The met were driven back by groups throwing bricks, other missiles and charging at them with much larger numbers than the police officers had. The police re-grouped, brought in riot control officers, the same thing happened, they were attacked and driven back. It could be argued that the largely black party goers were driven by a sense of righteous anger against a police force they believe to be institutionally racist.
There will no doubt be an element of that. It doesn't answer the total question though. Who gives those crowds the right to attack the police in that way. Why not respect the guidelines/the law about the high risk posed by this virus and go home. Why have illegal gatherings in the first place

This doesn't only apply to London. Im in the north west and we've had a plague of raves in local beauty spots. The level of rubbish left behind is disgusting.

I'm not minimising white privilege at all. The local raves were primarily white kids. My point is about lawlessness, a total disregard for our responsibilities to each other, especially during this dangerous covid times. I apologise if raising something not directly linked to the OP's question about institutional racism in the police is thought to detract from that important discussion.

Yes Callistemon we are innocent until proved to be guilty in court in this country.

I didn’t like the way the police handled this particular situation, but nonetheless I would very much like to know why the the driver of the car didn’t stop when the police indicated that he should. I would not dream of not stopping if requested to by the police, I simply would not countenance it, and nor should anyone else. Anyone who doesn’t stop when asked should expect to be treated as if guilty.

I had two members of my family in the police force, my nephew and another nephew’s wife. Both have now left, to work in jobs where they are respected, and not in any danger. I don’t blame them. A few comments on here show that some people still regard the police very unfavourably. Who wants to live with that for their whole working life?

Yes, innocent until proven guilty , even if seen sticking a knife
into someone

^The police wouldn’t know anyone was perfectly innocent just
by looking at them.^
But, in this country, aren't we innocent until proved guilty in a court of law?+

The police wouldn’t know anyone was perfectly innocent just
by looking at them.

I know a black doctor who has been stopped multiple times by the police. The athlete said her partner had been stopped a lot by the police. They have ANPR , does this show that they have stopped this car before? Recently in Suffolk a perfectly innocent couple were stopped, I'm sure that the police were biased in that case.

Now I am off for the evening.

I was in a car as a youngster, we were stopped because my ( male) friend was driving his mum's brand new car, with permission. The police only believed him after dragging her out of bed at 2.a.m . No offences had occurred . I suspect as we looked like scruffy hippies that was reason to stop us. Am I upset? No, did I complain? No.
Only remembered that when thinking how many times I had been stopped by the police.

I have no idea annie about the negative experiences of white people being stopped and searched. I’d guess that some of them do have a bad experience because I don’t think race is the only potential bias. We know sex and class can also be relevant in a whole host of situations, not just stop and search. The point is about being well trained and having the tight attitude in the first place.

And white people who are stopped and searched are not interviewed on the news claiming they are victims

Suzie. As I said I can't comment as I don't know much about this incident but my daughter and grandson have told me it was very heavy handed and of course that is not acceptable and needs to be dealt with.

Loislovesstewie- it's the iceberg principle. If two people who have a public profile are stopped and treat in such a way it becomes exposed because of their profile, however there may be a lot of similar incidents which remain hidden because the victims are ordinary and don't attract such interest.
The use of handcuffs has been referred for investigation so it's not quite as clear as you indicate.
No one has questioned the use of stop and search just why its use is so concentrated on black people and if the way it is executed indicates racism in the force. In fact if you look at the figures the use of stop and search is not as productiveas you might imagine. You can find the figures for Stop and search here www.ethnicity-facts-figures.service.gov.uk/crime-justice-and-the-law/policing/stop-and-search/latest
And I have just discovered something I didn't know and that is that the ethnicity of the occupants of vehicles stopped and searched isn't recorded which I find rather worrying.

AGA of course routine stop and search within the rules are a necessary part of policing. I don’t know anyone who thinks otherwise but something been necessary doesn’t mean anything goes or that you shouldn’t have the right to complain if you’re unhappy with what happened to you. That’s what separates us out from many other much more draconian policing regimes

Lois it’s been referred - I’m willing to await the outcome of that investigation. I really don’t know how you have the confidence to say they did stick to the rules. The police said they did - the rules will actually be open to interpretation anyway. And yes, it’s gone viral because of who they are - that doesn’t mean it’s automatically right or wrong what happened.

It was a policeman on a routine stop and search who caught the Yorkshire Ripper many years ago.

The police need to do this if they are suspicious. It is to keep law abiding citizens safe. Criminals cruise around in cars looking for vulnerable houses to break into or cars to steal.

I can't comment on what happened with the athletes as I wasn't there, so I don't know why they pulled this car over.

Oh come on Lois. Why the false binary? There are issues with stop and search as any fair minded person would acknowledge. One of those issues is the manner in which it is done not if it is done.

Exactly , if they weren't well known there wouldn't be half the publicity. And as for it being a ridiculous question, how so? If you look at the response Cressida Dick has apologized for the distress not for what happened.
So presumably they did stick to the rules, they had reason to believe something was happening and pulled the car over to check.
BTW , if we are debating what happened to being polite ? I believe I am being polite so why when I ask a genuine question about what people want/how they want the police to behave , I am told I am being ridiculous?

That's just a ridiculous question. The police should stick to the rules which are there to provide protection for the public and clear information for officers. There are doubts over if this was an appropriate use of their powers and complied with the restrictions. Let's also not forget the first response of the Met was to say nothing had happened, they have now given an apology and referred this to investigation. These were not just ordinary black people but someone who could draw attention to what happened and publicise it.

Ok, to ask a question. Should the police not stop and search ? Should they not stop and search certain ethnicities? Or people who drive certain cars? Or if a child is in the car? Or if there is a woman ? What would you suggest and bear in mind that the police need to be kept safe and have to make split second decisions.

There’s been a trial by social media on this case - on both sides It’s simply not true that there’s a general feeing that all police are pigs - that’s nonsense. Some people believe that and of those a very few may have very good reason so for doing. As for the implied argument that because we wouldn’t want to be a police officer, we somehow shouldn’t criticise them, that’s equally a nonsense argument. There’s lots of jobs I’ve never wanted to do for all sorts of reasons but that has nothing to do with holding individuals who do do those jobs to account and who have been criticised.

Big difference to putting handcuffs on a persons wrist and pressing a knee into a persons neck, to think one will lead to the other is so dramatic. If only handcuffs had been put on those who hacked P.C. Blacklock to death.

A young black man was interviewed during the first demo for
Black Lives Matter, he complained that police can stop cars to
search for drugs because it’s their laws. I thought the laws in this country applied to black and white, he thinks not.

I’m sorry Trisher but it is. There’s no harm is handcuffing someone and explaining they will be removed once enquires have been made or a search conducted. A police officer was stabbed to death when conducting a search or arrest of a terrorist suspect in Manchester several years ago. Other officers there and quite calm then suddenly goes berserk and picks up a knife. If he’d have been handcuffed that officer would still be alive. There’s no comparison to kneeling on someone’s neck. No decent person believes that’s acceptable.

No it isn't. The instructions are clear. It's ideas like that that lead to police officers thinking it is OK to kneel on someone's neck just in case he does something.

In most countries handcuffs are used routinely, I know they aren't here, and the police may face all sorts of attacks as a result.
it's a balancing act.

So as long as someone is “in distress” as opposed to resisting, what are the police to do?

Handcuffs are used to protect officers from violence. I saw bodycam footage of a female police sergeant arresting a man at an address. He was handcuffed and in the back of the police car quite calm. She bent down to speak to him and from nowhere he attacked her with such ferocity. It was hard to watch. He broke her nose and was kicking her on the ground. She did manage to press the panic/help button on her radio but she was badly injured. Isn’t it better to be cautious?