Seems the jihadi bride Shamima Begum might be coming back to stand trial in the U.K.

Plus the removal of Saddam Hussein and the ensuing power struggle which led to the formation of Isis and the bloodshed that followed.

Bush and Blair have a lot to answer for but never will.

Glorybee we have been interfering in the Middle East for centuries-ever heard of the Crusades?
I was referring to the involvement of individual citizens, but yes, if you want to draw attention to it, Western involvement has been responsible for huge numbers of deaths, from Winston Churchill advocating the use of chemical weapons, the formation of Iraq and Iran after WW1, supplying weapons to Saddam Hussein, invading Iraq or any other covert operations we have been involved in. Including the supply of BEA systems enabling the Saudis to keep bombing Yemen.

I think we should look closely at why children commit crime, because if we dont it will just keep happening. Children will continue to be recruited because it's easy. I wonder what the success rate of the Prevent programme is, we only hear of its failures, I wonder what evidence there is of how effective it has been.

trisher - “we should take responsibility for the mess UK citizens create”. The Middle East has never needed any help whatsoever in starting fights and warring amongst themselves for centuries, never mind anyone else. If the West completely ignored the whole area it would still be fighting over something.

Thanks Callistemon, I almost let it go because I'm responding so late on the thread but didn't want to appear to support the idea that a White British woman wouldn't be criticised as strongly as one of Pakistani/Bangladeshi Muslim heritage.

This is an interesting thread, with contributions from many different points of view. Its encouraged us to reflect on our belief systems and importantly, on the legal system in this country which imo protects us as well as possible

And there have been some well researched and salient comments too.

I agree, contributions looking at all angles.

I've never really joined in a political thread before but this one had all the elements I could picture happening to any family, albeit in less horrific ways. I have learnt a lot, and am still mulling it all over.

I understand now, Iam64

I felt that biba did not understand differences in Islamic beliefs, the fact that Mulims can be of any race or colour, as can Christians or people of any other religion, or, indeed, none.

Can I clarify, late in the day. My support for biba70 "well said biba" was a response to her first post about the difference in upbringing between Savid Javid and Shamina Begum. They may both be of Muslim heritage but their upbringings were totally different.
I cross posted with Biba and hadn't seen her second post, which suggested that if Shamina Begum was white the responses would be different. I disagree with that second post. I don't believe people would be less critical if Shamina Begum was from a white British family.

Thereare some extraordinarily unpleasant posts on this thread

And there have been some well researched and salient comments too.

Thereare some extraordinarily unpleasant posts on this thread

But nothing anywhere near as unpleasant as those actions admitted to by Begum.
Should we not be supporting the Kurds far more and enable them to seek justice for terrorist acts perpetrated against the Yazidis?

There are extraordinarily unpleasant posts on this thread

I haven’t read anything particularly unpleasant. I find the actions of SB extraordinarily ‘unpleasant’ to say the least.

Yes, that's about it.
Although we only have her word for it about her children.

There are an estimated 12 million stateless people in the world, despite international law, most through no fault of their own.

There are extraordinarily unpleasant posts on this thread.

What we do know is that

A child left the U.K. after being groomed by jihadists to marry a terrorist residing in the Middle East.

She gave birth to three children who subsequently died.

She took part in and verbally supported horrendous atrocities that were unbelievably awful.

She is a British Citizen.

International law says that you cannot make one of your citizens stateless.

The U.K. has a responsibility towards all its citizens.

The law should take its course and the young woman dealt with. I am confident that the judiciary will deal with this case appropriately.

She is entitled to support and full advise from her lawyer and psychologist etc.

That’s it really.

She was OK with Yazidi women and children being sold as sex slaves before they were considered "non-believers". Now picture this scenario:

IS were victorious, managed to spread their evil to other countries and eventually UK became an IS ruled country. Your daughters and grand daughters, would, as non believers be sold as sex slaves, your sons and grandsons taken and forced to become suicide bombers. Would you still be considering this woman and others like her as a "victim" to be pitied?

Of course, the above was very unlikely to happen - but it did happen to people who lived in the countries over-run by IS - put yourselves in the position of the parents and grandparents of those poor Yazidi women and girls, the parents and grandparents of the young boys forced into suicide vests

I was also wondering if those on here that feel so strongly that SB was a poor, misguided child would be quite so vociferous in their support for a right wing, racist that left these shores to engage in the slaughter, rape and enslavement of people from a different culture.

But I think that is what worries people; she will be treated purely as a victim and will face no punishment at all. And that because she is an Asian we will be scared of being called racists and again she won't be punished; or because she is female she will get away with any crime she may have committed because she will be viewed as a victim.
I would also ask those who have legal knowledge ; what crimes might she have committed ? Can she be tried in the UK for crimes not committed in the UK? If no crimes were committed here ,then what?

I don't think anyone has said she should "just slip back into the UK and get on with life" just that we should take responsibility for the mess UK citizens create and stop trying to pass the buck. That means bringing them back to the UK and having our justice system deal with them. Particularly when it is obvious that there is no functioning justice system where they are currently held.

So; do we think Jack Letts was just a silly young person who was led astray? According to his parents he suffered from severe OCD. Perhaps he also has psychological issues that caused him to so readily go to Syria . I don't know if that is the case , but there is another young man called Jake Bilardi who was described as being bullied severely at school. He converted to Islam , travelled to Iraq and at the age of 18, killed himself on a suicide mission. He is considered to have had psychological issues.
Whether they are ill, or in their right minds I feel that those who joined in by going to that area of the world must expect to be tried and punished if appropriate . If nothing else they supported terror and all that comes with it. I don't care if the people concerned were ethnically white or black or Asian or any of the above or none, the facts are that by the time they went most of the world knew what ISIS/ DAESH were up to.If anyone thought that their acts were acceptable then they deserve punishment, because they supported a murderous group of thugs.
Another point, a few days ago posters on another thread were up in arms about a 12 year old who tweeted an obnoxious message to a footballer. Apparently he deserved to be punished. And how do you feel about the boys who murdered James Bulger? Are they monsters or very damaged children?
I said at the time that I thought a 12 year old was probably so immature that he thought it was just a laugh. But we are supposed to dismiss a female who was 3 years older and had the means and knowledge to get herself into a war zone, knowing that it was just that. Did she think it was all a laugh? An adventure ? A means of escaping parental control but still keeping within guidelines for 'good Muslim girls'? Again I don't know, but I do think that she should not just slip back into the UK and get on with life when so many were denied that chance by the people she supported.

He had Furret in spite of the fact that he hasn't spent much time in Canada (his father is Canadian). The Canadians of course regard the withdrawing of his UK citizenship as the UK abdicating responsibility and you have to admit they have a point.

I think Jack Letts had dual British/Canadian citizenship. And he has a supportive family. Plus the position of a young male is very different from that of a young female in the Middle East.

Iam64

Well said biba70.

No, not well said at all.

biba misses the point entirely.

Perhaps people you know may be reacting differently, biba but you have no right to accuse posters on here of racist bile.

Posters have spoken of other terrorists who wish to come back to the UK (as they to other countries too) with the same worries and concerns whatever race they are.

They all have one thing in common, a belief in Islamic fundamentalism. Most Muslims are not fundamentalists, just as most Christians are not fundamentalists either.

I think you have missed the point entirely.

Are moves afoot to bring Jack Letts back to fight his case?

And if it's decided that she has committed any crime, and that will be very difficult to prove, I'm sure she'll get a fair trial. Just as Lisa Smith, Mary Kaya and Tooba Gondal did.

She was a 15 year old child when she left. I'm quite alarmed at some of the responses - and wonder how people would feel if their own daughter were in that situation.

Would we hear more about her being led astray, indoctrinated and traumatised?

I'd expect a fair trial, regardless, for any British citizen, here in the UK.