P C Harper Verdict

eazybee, your post sums up the strengths and weaknesses, to put it one way, of the traditional travelling community. In my working life I had a fair amount of contact with the travelling community throughout our county. They mirror the settled community in having a majority of friendly, law abiding people and a smaller but visible group of families who are anything but law abiding.
I remember one community matriarch telling me that I was talking about her adult son "abiding by your laws, they don't apply to us". She was a member of the housed community to lived in a large section of a post war council estate. The estate was built in an area which had been a traditional stopping off point for gypsies for hundreds of years. This group were what's often known as Irish gypsies/travellers. Most were good likeable friendly people but as eazybee says, there were a number of people from a few families who were 'known to the police'.
They really do see themselves as outside the law. They are outside their own communities as their way of life is disapproved of.

PC Harper’s widow has applied for a retrial

Excellent news, let's hope she wins.

There are a couple of petitions on change.org calling for this verdict to be overturned. The one titled "overturn a miscarriage of justice" has over 240,000 signatures so far

I’ll be signing

Thanks for that information oldwoman70. I will be signing. I happen to know someone who has lived in the area for years and had professional contacts with the community. These are indeed a family known to the police and authorities, as it's called, they just shouldn't get away with murder.

I’ve just signed and chipped in £10 to help. I feel very strongly about this.

If anybody here follows twitter, there’s an explanation here which explains the issues arising from the request for a retrial:
twitter.com/barristersecret/status/1288451764786728960?s=21

The chilling thing is this trio have got away with murder and smirked about it. This family were known to the police but the law enabled them. These policemen and women put their lives on the line all the time but the criminals getaway with murder. When will the pendulum swing in favour of justice. My heart could break thinking of his wife and family, I don't think. I could carry on. They shouldn't ever see the light of day.

Justice is in Britain is in the hands of those who are selected to serve as the Jurors in trials such as the one under discussion in this thread.

Those Jurors heard all the evidence and concluded that murder was not a suitable verdict and those persons and that verdict should be respected.

Only if there is clear evidence that the jury members were under any credible threat at any time prior too or during the trial would there be any case for a retrial in my view.

Grandad1943 What you say is true, however, in his/her summing up the Judge would have given the jurors guidance - which would influence their verdict. As previously stated in order to reach a verdict of murder it has to be proven that the suspects intended death to take place. In this case I don't think it was "intended" but I do think their actions were such that they were reckless as to whether death occurred. I hope they spend a very long time in prison with no early release.

Heartfelt sympathy for the widow.

I’m not at all surprised that jurors were intimidated, wether that made any difference to the verdict is doubtful. The laughing by the men at the trial is exactly what I would expect given their background, jail is no deterrent, it’s all part of their way of life. They will serve a few years and do exactly the same when they are released.
This low level theiving is dangerous now because they are usually high on drugs, confronting them in the way that PC Harper did is high risk. There have been many cases were property owners have been driven over by thieves making an escape.

Henry Long sentenced to sixteen years, Jessie Cole and Albert Bowers. sentenced to thirteen years each.
One hopes they will serve their sentences in full, but unless the law is changed drastically, it is highly unlikely.

How have we reached this situation?

The problem with the sentence is it is not a deterrent to go out and do exactly as such people want to again and again. The news hardly shocks me any more but this did. I was able to stop listening. The poor policeman and his family and everyone out there trying to make a difference- words fail me.

The result is not a deterrent but a badge of honour for such criminals -sad sad world

They will probably be treated as heroes by the other prison inmates, for taking the life of a policeman.

It is unlikely they will serve their full sentences and be out to commit more crimes.

They showed no remorse for killing the police officer so they will not be too bothered about killing again if anyone gets in their way.

I wish they had received longer sentences for this horrific crime. Andrew Harper was a lovely, kind and decent man who did everything he could to help people. My heart breaks for his wife, extended family, friends and colleagues.

There is a petition on Change.org
Justice for PC Harper maybe more people should sign it?

I’ve signed it. Bring back the death penalty for killing people in uniform and really harsh sentences for those who attack firemen, ambulance personnel and hospital staff. My daughter in law was stabbed when she worked in A/E. she recovered fortunately.

I can only think that anybody who believes in the jury system has never been a jury member. It is a joke. I was on two juries and each time it was a struggle to get people to understand that their decisions had to be based on the evidence before them. Half the people had made their mind up before the full evidence was even heard. The men were reluctant to convict a man on a child abuse charge despite overwhelming evidence because it would ruin his life! On a drugs charge where there was a gun found in the toy box in the search, there were jurors disbelieving that it could have been possible because "who would do that with a child about?" When the trial finished on the Friday of the fortnight's jury service, some of the jury members changed their minds about which way to vote because they didn't want to come back next week. I was absolutely gob-smacked. Without any evidence whatsoever, there was discussion that police might have planted stuff, women might have made stuff up (all women who had never met, came forward independently because their child had been abused, etc) and various other issues which made you wonder whether the intellect was there for those being asked to judge.
I strongly believe that these boys should be retried as there was obviously a problem with at least one juror who was disqualified but by the time the jury were making up their minds about the evidence, much discussion would have taken place and she could have influenced some of them. Are they guilty of murder? How can any of us who weren't there be capable of saying. It may look like it from the demeanour of these unpleasant specimens but without seeing all the evidence how do we know if it was murder beyond all reasonable doubt!

icanhandthemback I totally agree with you re juries. I did jury service two years ago. Both juries I served on seemed to want to rush it through and get home.

The jury is responsible for the verdicts, and the evidence that they were put under any pressure is negligible. Since none of us were privy to all the evidence and witness statements, I don’t think we are in a position to declare the jury wrong just because we personally belong to the ‘flog-em and hang-em’ brigade.

In terms of the sentences, has anybody actually read the judge’s sentencing remarks? You can find them here:
www.judiciary.uk/judgments/r-v-long-bowers-and-cole/

Icanhandthemback, I believe it is the offence of contempt of court to discuss what goes on in a jury deliberation room:
www.justice.gov.uk/courts/procedure-rules/criminal/docs/october-2015/j001-eng.pdf

I agree Bluebellwould. With the latest technology and DNA testing, I fail to see how anyone could get it wrong.
There is no guarantee that terrorists/murderers won't commit their crime again once released. What's the point in keeping them ?

The driver got 16 years, the two passengers 13 years and an accomplice who wasn't in the car got 2? None of them will serve the full term. What price a life? Not a lot, it would seem.