Rape convictions fall to a record low in England and Wales. Dame Vera Baird said in her annual report "what we are witnessing is the de-criminalisation of rape"

Galaxy

I really cant understand how men can get so intoxicated and then complain when they face a rape charge. They need to be more responsible and not get themselves in such a state where they may face a rape charge. Dont they understand they are making themselves vulnerable

Exactly.

No, firstly because they hardly ever convict - but I couldn't live with it!

US states do divide rape into various classes and state quite clearly what the offense involves. One of the classes is rape when the person involved could be considered incapable of giving consent, either because of intoxication or some other factor. I had thought looking at this that they might have better conviction rates, but this doesn't seem to be true. If you are interested en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_laws_in_the_United_States

quizqueen Sat 01-Aug-20 13:24:20

"I would definitely report it, if I was raped, but consider castration is the only answer-physical not medicinal- as they are likely to reoffend."

I wonder how qq might feel about that if her husband or son was wrongly convicted and castrated.

Gagajo
In order to avoid being raped, you had sex with someone when you did not want to (felt forced to).
You were raped on that occasion. Pure and simple.
Watermelon. Your attitude stuns me

I would definitely report it, if I was raped, but consider castration is the only answer-physical not medicinal- as they are likely to reoffend.

It is with huge regret and deep reflection that I feel inclined to say probably not.

I seem to be promoting a book by Malcom Gladwell, "Talking with Strangers" this morning on GN but it might explain why rape cases are not pursued as vigorously as we would like. I promise I am not affiliated with the author in any way but it does offer some illuminating insights. Chapter 8 discusses the case of Brock Turner who raped a girl at a Frat Party. Gladwell explores the role of alcohol and blackouts which happened to both parties in the case. Having watched teenagers in action, I have seen this "blackout phase" with my own eyes and it is quite frightening how easily young girls, in particular, get into that state. The fact is, if boys are in a similar state, they are both incapable of making those decisions about consent. We willingly accept that females can't consent when in that state but we don't accept that boys are equally incapable. If we look at the statistics regarding alcohol consumption, we can see that it has escalated enormously, particularly with females whose blackout point is much lower, so it is not rocket science to see that they might find themselves in a "rape" situation far more often than they used to. This will also make it far more difficult to get a conviction.
However, having experienced the CPS within the family in 2 cases, everything is pitifully slow and stressful for the victims. It does seem incredibly biased towards the alleged offender. One of the cases is regarding a very serious offence where the offender has admitted guilt in a statement. It has still taken over 6 months to get the green light to go.

I really cant understand how men can get so intoxicated and then complain when they face a rape charge. They need to be more responsible and not get themselves in such a state where they may face a rape charge. Dont they understand they are making themselves vulnerable

On a slightly different note, when a celebrity or public figure has suggested that women might look after themselves in a more responsible way and not get helplessly drunk there is usually an uproar of dissent. The row that ensued when Joanna Lumley gently suggested that girls should value themselves more highly and not become insensible and therefore vulnerable was hard to read. Later a senior female judge who has presided over rape cases said much the same - and was shouted down angrily. I really cannot understand how any woman can think that's it's fine to become helpless and leave yourself in a state where you can suffer a sexual assault; like it or not there are men out there who will take advantage. My friends helped a woman late one night who was being harrassed; she was hopelessly drunk and might well have been attacked if they hadn't intervened and got her into a cab. It must be so difficult to prove rape when you are so intoxicated that you can't remember what led to the assault.

Such horrendous statistics! I understand all the comments saying that they wouldn't report it & I do think one of the main reasons is the mobile phone being taken & info given to the defence.
While I wouldn't want an innocent person to go to prison, I think something has to change.
If a man commits rape & gets away with it, it gives totally the wrong signal to them - implying it's acceptable behaviour. That doesn't bode well for other victims.
Frankly I think the whole judicial system needs to be reviewed.

I think it is a very simple problem. Rape rarely, if ever, has witnesses.

I can fully understand a victim's unwillingness to report a rape or go ahead with a prosecution.

I can only say that until men and women are truly perceived to be equal, particularly in sexual matters, that this is always going to be difficult

No, I think you're completely right Galaxy. Most men are not only capable of controlling themselves, but they also have zero desire for a sexual partner who doesn't want to have sex with them. But that is THE cyclical argument, isn't it? Rape isn't about sex, it's about power.

Those Iraeli rapists CAN'T have found it arousing, having sex with an unwilling girl, in front of their friends. It was about dominance and power.

Sorry that was unfairly snappy, I did ask for peoples views on types of rape.

If men are unable to not rape someone who goes into their room, they probably shouldn't be allowed out in society. Perhaps we should turn it around. Any man who is daft enough to put themselves in the tricky situation of being in a room with a woman shouldn't complain if they face a rape allegation.
It's a terrible terrible view of men. The men I know would understand that being in a room with someone is not the same as please have sex with me.

As has been said,rape is hard to prove.
But if the victim is pulled into the bushes by a total stranger surely that is rape and should be reported.
But if a female goes up into the males bedroom of her own free will thats harder to prove as she has put herself into that tricky situation.
I think the law should be changed,example......if you murder someone you are jailed for murder not manslaughter if you are raped by someone you don`t know thats rape,but if you go to their room there should be an equivalent manslaughter charge.
I hope that makes sense.

Sorry, jumped in and didn’t read back in the thread. Iam and I were talking of the same rape. It was an appalling case. What kind of justice system convicts the woman of lying?

We had a discussion before about different sentences for different type of rape, what do people feel about this? I feel uncomfortable even writing the phrase different type of rape. I know very.little about the American system, are the different sentences to do with level of violence? Sorry trisher I think it was.you who talked about it but I didn't fully understand.

All rape is despicable. I’m thinking of that poor young girl who was gang raped in Cyprus last year. The behaviour of those men was despicable. The justice system in Cyprus appeared to me to favour the men. The girl was put in prison to await the trial. She was convicted I think, of lying? But then allowed to go home with her mother, to Britain. The whole disgraceful mess was not justice. The girl now has a conviction. Because she was raped! How will she ever get over it?

Jaye53 Sat 01-Aug-20 10:06:19
when a woman says NO to sex she means NO. if she is then coerced to have sex against her wishes it's rape. even in marriage. what is it about this that people don't understand.?

Yes, Jaye. The man who I ended up having sex with, because I didn't want to risk rape, so gave in, instead had said to me beforehand, 'You can't back out now after spending time with me.' As if my talking to him had meant I owed him sex. Not a chance in hell anyone really would think I was raped. But I definitely had no desire to have sex with him. Vile man.

Iam64 Sat 01-Aug-20 10:58:51
the trial where the young British woman had a holiday romance with a young man who was part of a group from Israel. She was raped by a number of his friends after having consensual sex with him. The young men admitted having sex with her but insisted it was consensual. They were welcomed home with flowers by loving family members.

I REALLY don't understand this. I can just about stretch to accepting that a family member has avoided prison or has been found not guilty. But to welcome them back with open arms?

Brock Turner. His family continued to support him despite CONCRETE evidence from two men who witnessed the rape.

They could make a start with the Windsor bloke. Don’t dress it up anything other than RAPE.

Froglady - thanks for being open about your experience. I wonder how many of us could say something similar but don't want to expose ourselves.

The Belfast rape trial was awful. It echoed the trial where the young British woman had a holiday romance with a young man who was part of a group from Israel. She was raped by a number of his friends after having consensual sex with him. The young men admitted having sex with her but insisted it was consensual. They were welcomed home with flowers by loving family members.
It's the same old isn't it, women treated as whores or Madonna's with a different attitude towards men and boys.

Froglady

I remember that case too inishowen it was appalling and no doubt put many victims off reporting.

One of Vera Baird's iniatiatives when she was our Police Commisioner was monitoring rape trials for instances of barristers or others in the court using unfair methods, such as language that denigrated the woman. She had a group of trained volunteers who went into the court, sat through trials and noted any instances. I don't think it is something I could have done. Unfortunately she has been working on this since 2014 and it does seem that things are getting worse.

when a woman says NO to sex she means NO. if she is then coerced to have sex against her wishes it's rape. even in marriage. what is it about this that people don't understand. ?