Day to day experience; racisim as a a part of life for some!

Madgran77 I think we are probably agreeing! Your last post made your meaning much clearer to me - I was grappling with what you meant at first. Thank you for explaining.

Fenella that is SO ironic!

I do agree with you that people can be unaware that they have racist attitudes which I suppose is what I mean by unconscious racism. ie they are aware/conscious of what they think but dont see it as racism. I'm not sure we do disagree actually, I think I'm probably not explaining myself very well. Sorry!

Fenella I’m trying not to laugh, but the irony of that says it all!

Madgran77
So they are aware of what they view as a valid assumption but are unaware of the inherent racism in that¬!
I think we are getting into quite deep philosophical waters here - on the nature of what is conscious, unconscious, aware or unaware! For me, if a person is aware of something, then it follows that it is a conscious thought?
I can see your point, but I think we may have to agree to disagree on what is conscious or unconscious racism. It is very subtle, and people can be completely unaware that they have racist attitudes.
An example - my mother, who is white, attended a function organized by the Caribbean Cricket Club, and she actually said to me, 'I was the only white person in the room, I felt awful.' She seemed to be completely unaware of the irony. (Maybe you can see why I have problems!)

I haver been out most of the day and was sorry to come back and find that deletions had been needed by GNHQ ..but good to see that it is now back on track.

Fenella your are right about being told that people of colour are 'too sensitive' to remarks that are not intended as offensive. Intended or not many remarks are offensive and that should be listened to! (Avalon I know you clarified your comments and did not mean that)

Fenella I have been pondering on your earlier remark about "unconscious racism". I do think that it can exist...in terms of assumptions being made about someone because of the colour of their skin or because of the culture. Someone may be aware that they are categorising/making an assumption and feel that that is entirely valid based on their experiences. They may not realise that those very assumptions ARE racist because they are not based on the individual but on a generalised view of that "people who are that colour" or "people from that culture"! So they are aware of what they view as a valid assumption but are unaware of the inherent racism in that¬! Does that make sense?

i was in a charity shop once going through the books, when i heard a black woman who had been looking around ask to speak to the manager. she told her that she objected that since she had entered the shop, a volunteer assistant, an older woman had been following her around, and that it was racist.
she was very calm, and i realised it was true. nobody else was shadowed like that. i was at the bookshelves so long that i might have aroused suspicion, but no interest on me. only her. i admired her for speaking up. and you fenella.

I find it very sad that people, any people, can be constantly hurt by racism. Racists have no respect, compassion or empathy for anyone who is different to themselves.

25Avalon thank you for clarifying, I understand what you mean and I do agree.

in my charity shop always we get it....customer because i'm black that you wont give me a discount.... so me being silly says well i'm white and i dont get one either..... lol....

Fenella12 to clarify what I meant was that anybody who has suffered abuse will be more sensitive to thoughtless remarks and we all need to be more understanding of that. If I beat my dog everyday it will come to expect me to continue to behave like that even when I stop and will cower away. Saying “no offence” to me shows someone is really being offensive and know it. If it might cause offence don’t say it. Good on you for speaking up. If people are rude or insensitive enough to say things they need to be told and hopefully apologise.

MawB

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I merely asked who Tony Morris was! And you deleted it?
FFS GNHQ

Gaga Jo thank you for your comments. I think you will be wise, regarding moving to a multicultural area for your grandson.
Part of my problems in life are due to the fact that I was completely unsupported as a child, in regards to my ethnicity. My father was a Windrush immigrant, and a founding member of the Caribbean Cricket Club in Leeds. He actively discouraged any discussion on race. Until I was five, my playmates were all of my own ethnicity, but, I lost touch with them as we lived in a different part of Leeds, so I was one of only two brown children at school in the early 1950s, where I experienced very many racist incidents.
My younger sister says she was not affected, but has had counselling many times in her life and is currently having counselling, in her sixties, so I think she was just as much affected as I was.

25Avalon I think this is part of the problem that when people say or do bad things to you then you do get sensitised and you will see remarks that were perhaps not intended to be offensive as just that
This too is part of the problem - being told that people of colour are 'too senstive' to remarks that are not intended as offensive. I have heard very many remarks that were followed by the words 'no offence meant,' or, 'I don't mean you, of course.'
I have reached a point in my life now (late sixties) where I will tell people that offence has actually been taken, whether or not it was intended.
Until I reached my late fifties, my reaction was to try to play it down, or to go off and cry!

Esspee I think this is part of the problem that when people say or do bad things to you then you do get sensitised and you will see remarks that were perhaps not intended to be offensive as just that. We need to be more sensitive in the way we treat people. For example I had words with a trans player the same as I would with any player but she got quite aggressive primarily because she has received so much abuse from a lot of hateful people. I realised I should have been more sensitive in my approach and apologised.
Regarding not being served in shops that invariably happens to me as well so I’m not sure if it’s down to colour or age so much as down to rude assistants. I tell myself I must be wearing Harry Potter’s cloak of invisibility again!

Fenella, my ex husband is black. He told me about the behaviour of people towards black people on buses and demonstrated it for me. The bus was over full, but the seat next to him was the last seat left empty, even while people were standing.

I knew the uk was racist before I married him, but it was an eye opener, the comments, assumptions, attitudes. Even rude remarks about our child.

The area I live in now, I thought was a nice area. But since my now adult daughter and grandson moved here to live with me (necessity), my eyes have been opened. I'm planning on moving to the multicultural area of the city before grandson starts school, because he can't grow up with this racism and be the only brown person in the school.

Sorry, gransnet, not mumsnet!

We need to judge people on their character and not the colour of their skin. To do this we need to communicate and interact with one another rather than be divisive. If a bame person gets a job it should be because they are good at it not because they are bame - the latter is insulting to bame people.

Interestingly in the American Civil War a lot of Northerners felt uncomfortable with black Americans because many had no knowledge of them. It’s not just about freedom but acceptance of people for what they are and to do that we need to get to know them. When I went to university the first thing I noticed about one of our group was the astigmatisms in one eye but once I got to know her I never noticed it.

I am wondering now, Ladymuck if your comment is an attempt to get the thread deleted?
To be honest, if I were a mumsnet moderater, I wouldn't delete the thread, but rather be having words with you about your poor attitude towards people of colour.

Ladymuck, one of the worst comments I have so far read on Gransnet. Shame on you.

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*My SIL is mixed race and drives an expensive car.He is always getting stopped in London where he works but not so much in Cheshire where they live. He takes it on the chin.
He does not see it as racism but proactive policing.*

I have just read these statistics in The Times this morning:

*Black people in London are nearly 4 times more likely than a white person to be stopped
* 80% of searches lead to no action

Practice policing??? Hmmm!

Fenella12 Oh right! In that case it is inexcusable that the headteacher did nit discuss with you and use your skills and experience re gge message!

Missfoodlove That is in no way proactive policing!

My SIL is mixed race and drives an expensive car.
He is always getting stopped in London where he works but not so much in Cheshire where they live.
He takes it on the chin.
He does not see it as racism but proactive policing.

Madgran77 I was a teacher at the school, not a child. Sorry, I should have been clearer.