Is morality something you expect of others?

I am an ex teacher, but I do think children need to go back to school. My son and his wife have gone back to work now, although they worked at home during lockdown. My other son can still work from home mainly, but his partner was made redundant immediately after lockdown. My daughter and her husband worked throughout lockdown as key workers, and continue to do so. Anyone who seriously thinks schools that provided key worker childcare managed to keep children socially distanced during lockdown is living in cloud cuckoo land. Some may have, especially older children, but it didn’t happen in my grandchildren’s school.

lemongrove

The know all attitudes of a few ( thankfully) posters are off putting for new posters to want to comment ,and tedious for those who have tried to put the other side of the argument.
So, no point really in commenting further, it will tail off after becoming an echo chamber for those who prefer schools to
Stay closed for a long long time because of course, they are the only ones who have any understanding of the situation ( in their eyes.)

Come on lemongrove. “Prefer schools to stay closed for a long time”. That’s not worthy of you, I’ve seen you put forward far more reasoned Arguments than that.

Jabberwok I agree with all you say. What a load of holier than though comments.

Peardrop50

I haven’t previously joined in because it’s all so predictable. The usual ‘experts’ saying the usual things.
I would just like to say that in these unusual and unpredictable times we have to manage the risks as best we can. Children need to get back to school and receive the education that teachers are paid to provide.
I just thank goodness that our brave nurses didn’t take the same view of self importance as teachers when they walked selflessly towards danger in the hospitals.

How is caring about pupils' safety self important?

Interesting interview with Welsh education minister on TV. He talked of the goal of getting children back to school, but recognised the need to take it steadily, to get some children back initially and see how the systems might be changed or improved and then aim to get all children back by the end of September.

Now there is the voice of common sense. If only we had a leader who did not feel the need to talk in soundbites and make swashbuckling statements. The voice of thoughtful reason would get everyone on board and make it clear that the government is thinking in practical terms, and listening - listening!

growstuff

The "other side of the argument" has been understood. The "know it alls" know how important it is that pupils return to school. They also know that there are issues which need to be addressed and shrugging shoulders and pretending they don't exist won't work.

I hadn't spotted any posters on this thread who want schools to stay closed for a long time, so I haven't a clue what you're on about.

Should anybody wish to discuss managing a supermarket, being a nurse or driving a forklift, I'm sure I'd be interested but I'm afraid I wouldn't have anything to contribute.

Unfortunately your last paragraph only reiterates Grandad1943's earlier point growstuff

Pretty much saying that if you are not a teacher, an ex teacher, a retired teacher, the mother or father of a teacher you have no place in this discussion. I wish the OP had made it more plain that only the aforementioned group of people need comment. The rest of us should shut up.

The original post was not about should children go back to school but about morals and in particular asks the question
" Can you expect morals from others if you don't have any personally ?"
It is an open question .

Exactly westendgirl which is why I commented early on in the discussion as it seemed interesting. then it quickly turned into a thread about teachers, for teachers.

growstuff

Peardrop50

I haven’t previously joined in because it’s all so predictable. The usual ‘experts’ saying the usual things.
I would just like to say that in these unusual and unpredictable times we have to manage the risks as best we can. Children need to get back to school and receive the education that teachers are paid to provide.
I just thank goodness that our brave nurses didn’t take the same view of self importance as teachers when they walked selflessly towards danger in the hospitals.

How is caring about pupils' safety self important?

Schools should have carried out their own risk assessments, taken steps to minimise risk, as have all other workplaces to protect staff and patrons, and should be ready to open. Only teachers are obstructing the process of getting children back to school.
Of course there are risks but the education and mental health of our children should be balanced against the risks of infection and teachers need to step up.

If all those with perfect morals were to say no more I suspect the thread will end here.

Only teachers are obstructing the process of getting children back to school. - name me a teacher to which this applies. Seriously; just find me one. Send me their names.

If you cannot then this is pure prejudice, and not based on reason.

I certainly have not met one, and I am in touch with many during this planning process - they are all itching to get back - they just want it done properly and in an orderly safe fashion, and are falling over themselves to achieve this.

Peardrop50, what makes you think that teachers are "obstructing the process of getting children back to school"? Do you actually know any teachers? My family members who are primary school teachers are now back in school getting ready for the pupils later in the week. I am concerned for their safety more than they are. They are ready to carry on with what they are being paid for, with just as much dedication as your average doctor or nurse, and I find your comments distasteful and insulting to another body of dedicated people.

Crossed posts, Luckygirl, but you are quite right!

I have always voted Conservative, but at the last general election, I just couldn't vote for an immoral leader like Boris so I voted Lib Dem. I object to being told what to do by someone with the morals of a tomcat. I do expect our leaders to try at least to be good moral characters, but Boris is so blatant about his personal life. I don't like the way he is incapable of stringing a sentence together either. How can we be expected to follow his instructions when we can't understand them?

Ellianne

^Who says Boris Johnson was an excellent mayor of LondonEllianne?^
As a Londoner that is my opinion.

I suspect that you are in a minority, but that probably depends upon which part you live in.

Schools should have carried out their own risk assessments, taken steps to minimise risk, as have all other workplaces to protect staff and patrons, and should be ready to open. Only teachers are obstructing the process of getting children back to school.
Of course there are risks but the education and mental health of our children should be balanced against the risks of infection and teachers need to step up.

What is really annoying me about all this pontificating about teachers is that posters are assuming that teachers aren't doing anything. And that they are somehow being wussy about opening schools up to all pupils (I nearly said 'going back to work' but most teachers have never stopped working since lockdown, apart from for legal holidays)

They certainly are 'balancing the risks' and one of the 'risks' for secondary children, who are as susceptible to Covid as slightly older adults, is the possibility of even a 'mild' attack causing them long term physical damage.

Over 18 year olds can take their own decisions but until then, adults are making decisions for them and they have a duty to make sure that the decisions are well informed and compatible with the young people's safety.

'Can do' and bugger the consequences is so irresponsible...

tickingbird

The teachers would, of course, like to bring the country to it’s knees if it brought about the downfall of this government. The end justifies the means for them I’m sure. The most bile and vitriol spouted about this government comes from those in that profession.

tickingbird I think you post is abhorrent.

I have several friends who were teachers until retirement and I've spent many hours arguing with them about how it is in the real world, particularly on the subject of holidays. But they are not trying to bring down the govt. About half of them are Tories and one is a bring back hanging and hunting and her children went to private school.

How dare you say that the most bile and vitriol comes from teachers. I will criticise them to their faces but your comments defy belief. Where are your facts or is the above just your opinion?

I would imagine teachers have carried out risk assessment and come to the conclusion that it isn’t possible to make schools safe. Then again we must listen to the PM because his handling of the pandemic, thus far, has been exemplary.....(?)

I am not a teacher but I am distressed to see the bullying of teachers on this thread. Especially those of you who have written in so reasonably here again and again explaining in detail the difficulties schools are facing in practice at this difficult time and not getting much recognition of or discussion of the points you raise. I am sure most if not all of you work hard in a difficult job for moderate pay and go the extra mile again and again for your pupils without the resources you need. It is not possible to slack off in a classroom full of thirty or more young children or teenagers. It must be so hard to do this job and have people here treat you as if you are villains. Shame on them. I also feel compassion for the young people and recognise the point about the most disadvantaged children suffering the most with schools closed. What private schools can and cannot do is beyond the point really. Most of our children are not in such schools. I feel governments for some time have cut funding for education to the bone and this is not in the interests of the majority of ordinary people in Britain. So I think in claiming the moral high ground, the PM is acting cynically. But it seems to work with many people. How crucifying teachers will help anyone who have children or grandchildren themselves in the state school sector is beyond me.

I was brought up in the Anglican faith but have not been a believer since my late teens. However, I can still remember the 10 Commandments and Johnson has broken at least 2 of them. I've always thought that most people lived their lives by the ideas of the 10Cs even if they are not believers but it would appear from many of the comments above that they don't.

Johnson's comments about the natin's moral duty are just another example of him saying one thing, possibly with his fingers crossed behind his back. That man appears not to have a moral compass and yet people are still standing up for him.

When BJ spoke of moral duty and ‘we’ I understood it to mean we as a society have a moral duty to get our children back into school, so I tend to think that the personal morals of BJ, or anyone else to be irrelevant.

My younger sister is a headteacher, two nieces and an in law. Hard left, card carrying bunch, two of whom are very active within their union and don’t want to reopen schools purely based on the risk to their own safety.
My sons are parents of school age children from various areas of the UK and are all disgusted at the lack of input from teachers throughout lockdown.
So I base my opinions on my own experience.
I have long been aware of the vast number of teachers on gransnet and have kept my counsel.
Previous poster talking about the criticism of teachers as bullying sums up the current wimpy attitude of teachers.

maddyone

When BJ spoke of moral duty and ‘we’ I understood it to mean we as a society have a moral duty to get our children back into school, so I tend to think that the personal morals of BJ, or anyone else to be irrelevant.

That is exactly what I was saying way back in the thread but you have put it so much better, maddyone.

Boris Johnson undoubtedly knows how many children he has; as a wealthy man he is also capable of providing for his offspring. He refuses to discuss his private life. Good for him - it is private. Significantly the only people who carp and criticise are those who speculate. Evidently his 'exes', whoever and however many they may be, have collectively not uttered an unkind word about him. I don't expect to see his new family in 'Hello' magazine - and for that if nothing else he has my admiration.

That's a fairly low bar to be honest.