Is morality something you expect of others?

I think most parents with school age children will think that our society has a moral duty to start up the schools come September.Not only those with children actually, but the great majority of the population would think that if asked.

And so in typical Gransnet form we are back to teachers again.

Yawn. Goodnight

I do not think that generally there is a move to want children not to get back to school - there does seem to be a consensus on this.

The issue is how to do this safely - for the children, for the staff and for those who share their home with the children and might themselves be vulnerable. There was a delightful young man on the news who said he lives with his gran and is worried about conveying the virus to her.

The real issue is how it should be achieved, not whether it should be done. There are many challenges on the ground in trying to achieve this: one the one hand the government (quite rightly) wants schools to maintain safety for children and staff under the very stringent safeguarding rules; but on the other hand does not provide the funds to make this happen. As I have explained before, extra staff are needed, extra accommodation, extra hygiene equipment etc. Schools cannot conjure these out of thin air (however much they might wish to) and there is no slack at all in their budgets.

lemongrove

I think most parents with school age children will think that our society has a moral duty to start up the schools come September.Not only those with children actually, but the great majority of the population would think that if asked.

Most teachers think the country has a moral duty to reopen schools too. However, they also know what is feasible.

Nobody who thinks teenagers should be in school full-time has commented on the overcrowding on classrooms and the fact that social distancing cannot take place. Is it moral to expose teenagers to risks which the rest of the population are told to avoid?

No, I don't think so.

Callistemon

If transmission of the virus is supposedly low between children and from children to others, we will be failing a whole generation if schools are not opened again in September.

If the fear is transmission to grandparents then I am afraid that grandparents will have to take every precaution and perhaps isolate again for a while.

I'm sorry, but children are the future.

Transmission between those over 10 (ie secondary age pupils) is apparently as high as it is for adults. They will probably only be affected mildly, but they are capable of spreading infection.

The emotive language is misplaced. Teachers know very well that many pupils are missing out, but it's nothing to do with morality. It's to do with not being provided with resources. It was announced today that the new 90 minute tests won't be available to schools and pupils and staff won't be routinely tested anyway.

The virus will do its mischief, whether or not it's moral.

Callistemon

But I am the aunt of medical staff too, a doctor, nurses, pharmacists.
They have all continued working throughout.

It's not a competition to see who can be the bravest.

Callistemon

Five children have died of the virus in the UK which is very sad indeed.

Children who are vulnerable should probably not return to school but for the majority it is the best course of action as many thousands, or million, will be disadvantaged if not.
LAs should be prepared for local lockdowns.

But that's five children even with mitigating circumstances. The pupils who have been at school have been able to observe social distancing, which will not be possible in September.

Only a few secondary pupils have been at school. It is known that they transmit the same viral load as adults and they are going to be crammed into small classrooms without ventilation for hours at a time.

Schools in France, Israel and South Korea had to close within days of reopening. At the time both Israel and South Korea had very low infection rates.

Did I say that?

No.

But obviously some are braver than others.
And dedicated. As are my DGC's teachers but from what I've read on here and heard elsewhere, not all are.

Anyway, I have praised teachers, the ones I know of, throughout, and those I know are keen to get back to the job they love.

Perhaps the Unions should concentrate on a positive and practical way forward now.

Ok. Let's shut down education for the next two or three years if that's what you think is the moral thing to do.

The most recent date for which official hospital bed occupancy in England is available is 5 July.

On 5 July, 2088 beds were occupied by confirmed Covid-19 patients. I'm not aware that there's been a massive reduction since then.

It would appear that community infection rates are rising, so it could be that hospital admissions will start to increase within 10-14 days. On the other hand, most of those infected are younger than previously, so might not need admission. It doesn't mean that transmission is decreasing, so hospital admissions are not necessarily a good indicator of the current state of infection.

Significantly, a younger person can infect somebody more vulnerable and that's what's concerning if people become too complacent.

Callistemon

Ok. Let's shut down education for the next two or three years if that's what you think is the moral thing to do.

That's ridiculous and plain silly!! Nobody's suggested that. I've already written about how it could be made to work more safely.

It's not either/or. It's about the government being transparent and taking its own responsibilities seriously.

BTW Callistemon The teaching unions have been positive and proactive throughout. Unfortunately, the government didn't want to engage with them initially.

I wondered how long it would before teaching unions were "blamed". The government's PR campaign seems to be working.

growstuff

The most recent date for which official hospital bed occupancy in England is available is 5 July.

On 5 July, 2088 beds were occupied by confirmed Covid-19 patients. I'm not aware that there's been a massive reduction since then.

It would appear that community infection rates are rising, so it could be that hospital admissions will start to increase within 10-14 days. On the other hand, most of those infected are younger than previously, so might not need admission. It doesn't mean that transmission is decreasing, so hospital admissions are not necessarily a good indicator of the current state of infection.

Significantly, a younger person can infect somebody more vulnerable and that's what's concerning if people become too complacent.

I think there has been quite a large reduction, growstuff

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/covid-wards-empty-as-virus-death-toll-plunges-bvm0mxl2n

I also have two NHS frontline staff in my family.

Hardly any covid patients in either hospital that they work in.

I'm sure I read that the R rate (remember that?) is almost at 1 again.

It depends on area though.
There has been one new case in this area in the last week.

If a teacher needs to shield for medical reasons, fair enough.

gillybob

And so in typical Gransnet form we are back to teachers again.

Yawn. Goodnight

Odd that a thread about school involves teachers.........

MissAdventure

I'm sure I read that the R rate (remember that?) is almost at 1 again.

It is - and it's higher in some areas.

Callistemon

If a teacher needs to shield for medical reasons, fair enough.

It's not just teachers and other staff needing to shield, who are going to have to fight for the right to shield anyway.

It's also about all the contacts.

Think about the implications of just one infected teenager in an average comprehensive school. They will not be able to socially distance (despite what Gavin Williamson claims). They will be couped up in conditions which are ideal for spread.

One infected pupil could be asymptomatic for a couple of days and during that time infect those sitting nearby - maybe three or four. They will all be asymptomatic for a few days, so will take the infection home and possibly infect family members, some of whom are going out to work, who them pass it on, ad infinitum.

By the end of the week, there could be a few dozen infected people - all because social distancing wasn't possible in school. The school will need to close anyway, so the aim of getting the economy going will be a waste of time.

There needs to be efficient and quick testing on a regular basis and provision for one week on/one week off, so that social distancing can take place.

There have been fewer deaths recorded in hospitals and care homes, but more in domiciliary care (double the normal rate) and more cases recorded in the community.

I know that my local hospital still has Covid patients being admitted and has a number still requiring treatment.

Callistemon

It depends on area though.
There has been one new case in this area in the last week.

I believe you're in Wales.

These are the latest statistics available on hospital admissions in Wales for confirmed Covid-19. They are the admissions during the previous 24 hours on 5 August.

Aneurin Bevan 10
Betsi Cadwaladr 25
Cardiff & Vale 19
Cwm Taf Morgannwg 9
Hywel Dda 9
Powys 0
Swansea Bay 2
Velindre 0
Total 74

Source: NHS Wales Informatics Service

That's the highest number of new admissions since 11 July and there's a rising trend.

The actual number of cases will, of course, be much higher.

My local hospital in an area with about average infection had 491 Covid admissions in the month up to 30 July. Sadly, 129 died.

It is obvious from reading this thread and others that have centred on the school's closure that the education profession is incapable of conceiving any change in the way they and schools should operate.

All fresh thinking is shouted down, and yet such thinking and working has become essential as the government is insisting that ALL CHILDREN will be returning to school learning in September.

The teaching profession also seems oblivious to the reality and evidence that Boris Johnson seems now to be relishing a confrontation with the profession knowing that he would have the overwhelming weight of public opinion on his side come September if the schools are not once again fully open.

Positive thinking and a "can-do attitude" is what is now required by all connected in education and not the continuous negativity we all can witness in this thread and elsewhere.

I think you need to go to Specsavers or Barnard Castle Grandad. Some posters, including me, have made a number of suggestions about how opening schools could work.

The difference between us and you is that we understand how schools operate and are able to offer pragmatic and reasonable alternatives.

Interestingly, Andy Burnham, Ofsted and Ann Longfield (the Children's Commissioner), SAGE and other leading scientists are all saying the same as I have been saying for months.