on both sides of the pond- the extreme left is scuppering their own cause

biba70

trisher- even if we agreed on this - will Starmer screw the working classe more than ERG and Cummings?

Tony Blair screwed the Britains working people in equality with anything Tory governments carried out.

In his first term as Labour Prime Minister Blair did bring forward the minimum wage into legislation. However, he then allowed employers to circumnavigate that legislation by not preventing the start of Zero Hours Employment Contracts and Gig Economy Terms of Employment.

The Blair administration then did not repeal any section of the fifteen anti-trade union bills that had been introduced since 1980. The repeal of at least sections of those acts would have allowed working people in organised workplaces to fight the introduction gig economy and zero hours working but Blair ensured they could not.

The above is the reason why now there is such suspicion of Starmer and his right wing shadow cabinet by the entire left in the Labour movement.

That suspicion and division will remain until Starmer strikes up a genuine dialogue and working relationship with the left in the Labour Party and perhaps, more importantly, the left-leaning activists in the wider Labour movement.

What happened under Blair will never be allowed to happen again.

Grany

Yes I know that Whitewavemark2 I am just explaining why people feel passionate as they do about politics changing to how they were, to the right. And how they might want to get try to change things some way.

What I think the left is lacking is patience!

5 months and every single month dominated by covid.

To a certain extent Starmer would be clever to let Johnson carry on as he is, letting his uselessness and incompetence speak for itself.

But it won elections for Labour that they haven't won since! Surely the proof of the pudding etc etc!!

growstuff it was well documented & I’ve been adding links over the years about it. He did accelerate it (ask MaizieD she concurred at the time). Take it as gospel. Trust me on this, please.

Grany - You have my support too.

plus @ Grandad*-
It has always puzzled me why the TUs have never played a more active part in Parl. politics? eg how many TU reps have been electd as MPs on the basis of their union membership?
Why have the TUs never set up their own political party?
If they did I would join it. Though I'm a bit out of date by now.

Urmstongran

growstuff it was well documented & I’ve been adding links over the years about it. He did accelerate it (ask MaizieD she concurred at the time). Take it as gospel. Trust me on this, please.

I'm lost. What do you mean?

Grandad1943 Do you have details of when the LP membership numbers reduced? I suspect that many left because of Corbyn and not the election of KS.

Trisher I do not think of Starmer as a god and I suspect that most LP supporters don't either. However, I do think that most LP supporters would like to give him a chance.

Both Trisher and Grandad can pontificate about the left of the party and affiliate members but most people, now I suspect, would like to be shot of the Tories and would support a leader who could achieve that.

Read these comments and then tell me how wonderful Starmer is www.vice.com/en_uk/article/qj4jam/labour-young-members-keir-starmer

Jabberwok

But it won elections for Labour that they haven't won since! Surely the proof of the pudding etc etc!!

Jabberwok, what is the point of winning elections if it does not benefit your core supporters who are also the ones that pay the vast majority of the Labour Party's Bills?

Trisher Why do you keep asking how wonderful we think KS is? I doubt that many of us do and I don't think that anybody has actually said that.

Are you sure that you're not getting confused with those on here who still support Johnson and do think he's wonderful?

Well this piece states the clear reasons why the young people have no faith in Starmer and many other people too. Good link trisher

Dinahmo I am desperately trying to find something positive about Starmer. I keep hoping that someone will post something which shows he is a committed socialist, that people will explain to me why they believe in him. And time and time again they fail.

Grandad1943

Jabberwok

But it won elections for Labour that they haven't won since! Surely the proof of the pudding etc etc!!

Jabberwok, what is the point of winning elections if it does not benefit your core supporters who are also the ones that pay the vast majority of the Labour Party's Bills?

That sounds like blackmail (again)!!

Constituents vote for MPs, not union members.

In any case, are you seriously saying that you would rather have a Johnson government than a Starmer government? Do you care that little about people in need that you would sacrifice them to some woolly ideals?

trisher

Dinahmo I am desperately trying to find something positive about Starmer. I keep hoping that someone will post something which shows he is a committed socialist, that people will explain to me why they believe in him. And time and time again they fail.

YouGov poll 10 August. Somebody disagrees with you.

Fennel

plus @ Grandad*-
It has always puzzled me why the TUs have never played a more active part in Parl. politics? eg how many TU reps have been electd as MPs on the basis of their union membership?
Why have the TUs never set up their own political party?
If they did I would join it. Though I'm a bit out of date by now.

The trade unions have always viewed the Labour Party as an integral part of the whole Labour Movement of Great Britain.

In that the Parliamentary Labour Party was born out of the trade unions as their political wing and as such the unions have financially maintained (affiliated) the Parliamentary Labour Party for well over one hundred years.

However, I now feel that long-standing joint relationship may very well be drawing to a close. We will now have to wait and see what takes place at the TUC Congress which is now scheduled to take place commencing the 15th of September.

The above is the same week that the now cancelled Annual Delegate Labour Party Conference was due to be held.

Those could be very interesting days for the future political outlook of the whole Labour movement which includes the Labour Party.

growstuff everyone is entitled to disagree with me. However posting that does nothing to tell me what Starmer believes in or how he will act. His silence on the asylum seekers situation speaks much louder.

It's about purity but it's also about lack of responsibility and accountability. If you never get into power you dont have to take any responsibility when things go wrong, and as there is no such thing as the perfect government, they will always go wrong, but this way you remain forever committed to your pure ideals, you never have to compromise or fail, you never achieve anything either but that's by the by.

Galaxy, In regard to your post @21:10 it's about commitment to the core beliefs of the Labour movement.

The key people in the whole Labour movement are the trade union shop floor activist. They are the persons who represent workers at disciplinary and grievance hearings, negotiate pay and working conditions at a local level along with much more.

Those shop floor activists are the people who have also kept the trade unions in being through fifteen anti-trade union bills each of which was meant to destroy the trade union movement in the United Kingdom.

While carrying out the above they have also maintained a trade union membership of over six million and that has retained the income of the Labour Party through the political levy which accordingly has also kept the Labour Party income in being.

Therefore if Starmer is not prepared to show commitment to those activists and those members I feel that the trade union relationship with the Labour Party should be brought to a conclusion and each should chart a separate path.

'Read the comments from many of us here and then tell me how wonderful ERG and Cummings are compared to Starmer- for the future of the UK in massive crisis.

Divide and rule - as long as we have FPP - no other option.

Of course France and other countries have several parties on the left and on the right - and a proportional voting and 2 stage system. We do not.

So ERG Cummings for you

or Starmer. If you choose the first, then the discussion is over. And yes, I'll despair even more.

growstuff

Urmstongran

growstuff it was well documented & I’ve been adding links over the years about it. He did accelerate it (ask MaizieD she concurred at the time). Take it as gospel. Trust me on this, please.

I'm lost. What do you mean?

I'm lost, too.

What are you referring to, Ug?

What have I concurred with?

I don't even recall you being on here 'for years' (or have you had another incarnation?)

WW2, you make a good point. Johnson and co need to own, and take responsibility for this fiasco and the others. KS and his team make the necessary points re various situations clearly either via the net, articles in papers or interviews on TV. Once Parliament is back greater opportunities will arise.
KS believes in Labour values We don't need to know his detailed policies at the moment as we are not in an election year. There is I believe going to be several speeches etc on during Conference week which I think members can zoom in on so that should help some people understand the direction KS and his team will take. I can't see what else KS can do in the present circumstances except reach people via the various platforms on the net/media. Govt. restrictions re COVID19 prevent him for jumping up on a soap box to pontificate. I seem to remember a fairly long member consultation period over JC's policies so let's give KS the same opportunity.
I have never heard anyone talk of Starmer as 'wonderful' or our Great Dear Leader. I do remember JC's followers calling him the Absolute Boy and many calling themselves Corbynistas.

Devorgilla when people called themselves Corbynistas it was a way of embracing the accusations constantly made about them. I never saw either of the other terms used. What has that to do with Starmer anyway?
The ERG and Cummings were both active when Corbyn was leader where then was the will and the initiative to support him and destroy them? Asking people to act now in support of Starmer against them is closing the stable door after the horse has bolted. Or perhaps its a guilty conscience.